Re-examining the Psl 83 - Isa 17 - Eze 38-39 Scenario

I used to be one that believed in a pre-trib Gog Magog Psl 83 - Isa 17 - Eze 38-39 scenario, but after almost 2 years of some pretty hard study I can not say that anymore. In fact I have to say that I am strongly leaning towards the ranks of Gog/Magog are one in the same with Armageddon.

WHAT???

I can hear it now... OH NO... RAY HAS LOST THE FAITH... HE HAS GONE OFF THE DEEP END... HE IS A HERETIC...

Now if you are still with me and have not bailed out thinking I am a heretic, there are some major logic holes that I have issues with regarding this scenario. I want to start with my first concern with this scenario, one being of vital importance...the rapture.

POINT 1 - A FALSE INDICATOR FOR THE RAPTURE

Recently an idea has planted itself that many are using the Psl 83 - Isa 17 - Eze 38-39 scenario as a means to predict the rapture. Not only are many alluding to this, I have heard several teachers out there teach that all we have to do is watch for this sequence of events and then we know the rapture is at hand. This is highly un biblical.

Scripture says that no man knoweth the hour.

Mat 24:36(KJV) But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

In fact it is this sort of same argument that the other views give, which pre-tribbers then come down on them for "banchmarking." This alone troubles me greatly and I have to ask "what makes Pre-Tribbers any different if we are applying the same logic that Post and Mid tribbers are using in timing the Rapture?" They are using points in time as indicators. And we come down on the Mid and Posts for doing this? What makes us any different if we are using this scenario as an indicator for the Rapture?

In fact there are several doctrines that those of us who teach the pre-trib rapture stand upon when disputing the other rapture views, and yet, when it comes to the Psl 83 - Isa 17 - Eze 38-39 scenario and the rapture, these people are breaking these very rules themselves.

The primary rule that I will address is what I consider the foundation of the Pre-Trib Rapture and one I hold very dear, that being the Doctrine of Immanency

What is the doctrine of immanency?

Basically it is the belief that Jesus will return for His church at any time, even at this very moment. Scripture does not tell us when Christ will come and in fact scripture says that only the Father in Heaven knows as we have stated before.

The outcome of this doctrine is that bibles believing Christians are accountable to living a correct life. It is immanency that gives us our cause to spread the gospel and be accountable to God.

Why is this doctrine important you may ask?

Simple, because you do not know when He is going to return.

When Christ returns we want to be found doing the work of the Lord, living a proper life fit to be called a child of God, occupying till He returns.

Now before I catch any flack, I am not saying that this is how we get to heaven. What I am focusing on is how we live after we have accepted Christ as our personal savior.

When one truly does not know the time of Christ’s return; you live a more righteous life. You are compelled to do the “right thing” as if Jesus can return at any second now.

Now I am not saying that this doctrine brings perfection, it doesn't in any way shape or form. But it does bring about a proper Christian attitude, especially when the gospel is involved.

We have cause to share the gospel with our friends, family, co-workers because we have an impetus that it many be any second now and we do not want our friends, family and loved ones to be left behind.

The doctrine of imminence was taught by Paul himself.

BUT when you put “markers” in the road so that you know “where you are,” all of a sudden you live a slightly less accountable life.

When the doctrine of immanency is not held to, it is easy for a person to not live a proper life and skirt the boundaries that God has laid for us to obey.

Exposing “mile markers” in the road is the same argument that I have used refuting Mid and Post tribbers.

“For me to know when Jesus will return for the church, all I need to do is watch for the appearance of the antichrist. When the antichrist appears, I know Christ is to follow.”

That is a comment I once have had with a post tribber.

He went on to explain that when he (the antichrist) appears, he knows that they are in tribulation and that Christ will return in seven years. All that he needs to do is “withstand that horrible day” and when he does he will then be caught up in the air.

Sound familiar?

See when you have “mile markers” all of a sudden the temptation to live a less than righteous life creeps in. You watch for the mile markers verses watching for Christ himself.

You life becomes one which all of a sudden the mile markers are what matters. Not sharing the gospel, not living a righteous life, not doing the right thing, not even getting into God’s word.

See this is one of the problems I have with the Psl 83 - Isa 17 - Eze 38-39 scenario which states surrounding nations around Israel will be wiped out first, then Damascus, then the Gog Magog, then the rapture.

So in essence I can live like hell, taking for granted that I am not going to die tomorrow and all I need to do is watch the Middle East. Once the Middle East blows, I get my life right with Him and I can make it for sure in the rapture.

YES... it is a fact that there are many people out there who are thinking exacly this way. I have talked to many of them and this is exactly how they believe. But what is worse, it was taught to them by those teachers teaching the Psl 83 - Isa 17 - Eze 38-39 scenario.

POINT 2 - ISRAEL OWNS THE LAND

Another point of logic that people are completely over looking is "IF" this is the case that all these things take place as some people are teaching (Psl 83 - Isa 17 - Eze 38-39 scenario); Israel will own everything from the Mediterranean to the Euphrates River.

See this is often not mentioned and in fact it is not even thought about.

If the Psl 83 - Isa 17 - Eze 38-39 scenario takes place the way that is being taught, Israel being victorious; The Israelis will be emboldened because it was God who stepped in on their behalf and they will stick to their guns and to the land. The fact is that they will view this as a fulfillment of God's promise. If any of you have met Israeli's you know that they are a hard, shrewd people and you know that what I say is true.

So out of this, if this scenario took place according to how some of these teachers are presenting, Israel being victorious, and if you take it to the logical conclusion, again I have to ask several things

1 "Why does Christ need to return in seven years to "rescue" His people when they can basically do it themselves?"

2 In fact why is there a need for Armageddon when the nations that Israel goes to war with have been destroyed by them (IDF) already?

POINT 3 - MUSLIM COUNTRIES

In the Day of the Lord / Armageddon, Why is it that all the countries mentioned are Muslim Middle East countries? According to Psl 83 - Isa 17 - Eze 38-39 scenario these countries were supposed to be wiped out, yet when you read scripture talking about the Day of the Lord / Armageddon and we clearly see the very same countries that were suppose to be utterly destroyed seven years earlier according to Psl 83 - Isa 17 - Eze 38-39 scenario.

Now am I to understand that all these countries come back to power and strength in just seven years? This is literally impossible, even with 1/6 of an army that is left mentioned in Eze 39. It takes a minimum 18 - 20 years to secure a minuscule amount able fighting bodies. ALSO, this is taking place during the tribulation where almost 2/3s of man are wiped out in God's Judgments. So how do these countries overcome birthrate and God's Judgments to come back to fight after being wiped out just seven years prior?

POINT 4 - VERY IMPORTANT...BACK TO THE LAND

Many people forget that if Israel wins, which is being proposed by those teaching the Psl 83 - Isa 17 - Eze 38-39 scenario, then Israel owns all the oil, the resources, the land and to the victor goes the spoils.

I have to keep asking myself "Why does shrewd, stiff necked Israeli's need to give it all up when they have no more enemies? They own it all and can do anything they want. The Arab / Muslim threat is now eliminated. Is it the EU that will rise up and battle Israel? If they are, where in scripture are they named like all the rest of Israel’s enemies in the last days?

See it is this sort of logic that people are not thinking about. People are not playing the scenario completely out to its logical end. Folks, the God we serve is one of logic and reasoning. Instead there are people out there that have this fairy tale idea that the AC will step up and Israel will cow-tow to some guy from Rome. I ask why should they when they own it all?

See if Israel is victorious, there is no one to ask permission to re-build the temple, no need to grovel up to the west because they own the oil, they don't need anyone's permission because they are victorious and the world knows it and they tremble in fear of Israel.

Do you realize the stigma that Israel will have with the world if this is the correct scenario?

Folks, do we not remember the 6 day war? No country in their right mind would invade Israel after that. The world saw that Israel was God’s chosen. If that would take place again as those who teach the Psl 83 - Isa 17 - Eze 38-39 scenario, no country in their right might will mess with Israel at all. Because if they do, they run the risk of the same thing happening to their country that happened to Jordan, Lebanon, Persia, Ethiopia, Egypt, ect ect ect as being taught in the Psl 83 - Isa 17 - Eze 38-39 scenario.

The problem with this Psl 83 - Isa 17 - Eze 38-39 scenario is that it does not hold up to what scripture teaches. In the last days Israel is not victorious; in fact she is a burdensome stone with all nations involved. She is surrounded by her enemy, she is the center of the world with the temple mount being the prize.

Scripture does not teach a victorious Israel like those that teach the Psl 83 - Isa 17 - Eze 38-39 scenario. In fact like I stated, I used to teach this also, that is until I started to really read scripture in light of scripture and not in light of what I have been taught by men or by the books I have been reading.

What I believe is that the Gog Mag - Armageddon- Day of the Lord is all one in the same. I have been conducting a mountain of research in hopes of writing a book. Here are fourteen reasons why Ezekiel 38 & 39 is Armageddon. In fact I welcome rebuttal to these statements using proper literal context, solid hermeneutics, logic and reasoning in light of scripture and not what some author said in a book they wrote.

WHY GOG MAG - ARMAGEDDON ARE ONE IN THE SAME

(1) Not one statement in these two chapters (38-39) mention a war in Israel before Armageddon [or after]. There is only one major battle addressed in scripture and it is the Day of The Lord.. AKA Armageddon.

(2) The battle of Armageddon is the only war predicted by the prophets that could possibly be referred to in these chapters (Ezek. 38:17). Armageddon is mentioned many times by Isaiah, Jeremiah, Micah, and other prophets before the days of Ezekiel (Isa. 1:25-31; 3:25-26; 13:1-16; 24:21; 63:1-6; Jer. 25:30-33; 30:11,20-24; Joel 2-3; Oba. 1:15-21; Mic. 1:3-4; 2:12-13; 5:5-15; etc.).

(3) The destruction of Gog and his armies (Ezek. 38:18-23; 39:1-6,17-20) compares with similar statements about Armageddon in Joel 3; Zech. 14; Rev. 19:11-21.

(4) Gog will not fall upon the open field until Armageddon (Ezek. 39:3-5; Rev. 19:11-21).

(5) The great supper for the fowls and beasts will only be at Armageddon (Ezek. 39:4,17-20 with Mt. 24:27-28; Rev. 19:17-21).

(6) The presence of God (as pictured in Ezek. 38:18-21; 39:1-6,17-24) will not be until Armageddon (Isa. 63:1-6; Zech. 14:1-5; Rev. 19:11-21).

(7) The supernatural destruction of Gog and his armies (as described in Ezek. 38:21-23) will not be until Armageddon (Isa. 63:1-6; Joel 2-3; Zech. 14; Rev. 19:11-21).

(8) God will not magnify and sanctify Himself and set His glory among the heathen (as stated in Ezek. 38:23; 39:21-24) until He comes at the second coming of Christ -- at Armageddon (Zech. 14:1-21; Mt. 24:29-31; Rev. 19:11-21).

(9) Gog will not bring the many armies of the nations into Israel to be destroyed until the time of the second coming of Christ, at Armageddon, as referred to in Ezek. 38:18-23; 39:1-7 and proved in Zech. 14:1-5; Rev. 16:13-16; 19:11-21.

(10) The great earthquake of Ezek. 38:20 will not take place until the seventh vial and the second coming (Zech. 14:1-5; Rev. 16:17-21; 19:11-21).

(11) God's presence will not destroy Gog and his army until the second coming, at Armageddon (Ezek. 38:20; 39:2-7 with Zech. 14:1-5; Rev. 19:11-21).

(12) Gog and his army cannot be destroyed in a war in Israel before the second coming, at Armageddon, to fulfill Ezek. 38:18-23; 39:1-7,17-20, and then be destroyed again at Armageddon to fulfill Isa. 63; Joel 2-3; Zech. 14. We must therefore recognize all these passages as referring to the same destruction -- at Armageddon (Rev. 19:11-21).

(13) The burial of Gog and all his armies destroyed in the fulfillment of Ezek. 38-39 will be at the second coming of Christ (Ezek. 39:11-16 with Dan. 7:11; 2Th. 2:8-12; Rev. 19:11-21).

(14) It is at the second coming of Christ that God's glory will be set among the heathen and Israel will be completely gathered and blessed (Ezek. 39:21-29; Zech. 14; Mt. 24:29-31; Rom. 11:24-29; Rev. 19:11-21).

FINALLY - BURNING THE WEAPONS

This is the one thing that people always point too as "proof" in proposing a pre trib G/M war.

But in this my answer is simple. Why does Israel burn the weapons during the Millennial rein? Because God commands them to do so. Just like God commands that temple sacrifice continues. They do it out of remembrance and obedience to God. We forget at times that we are told to do things just out of obediance to God. So this answer is simple, He tells the people to do so.

Hope I gave everyone some food for thought and I asks that you will really look into what I have presented here and not blow it off because it isn't what you are reading in the popular books. I honestly welcome you to look for the holes in what I have presented. I also want to thank Terry Mitchell for the reseach and help on the 14 points WHY GOG MAG - ARMAGEDDON ARE ONE IN THE SAME.

About the Author:

Ray & Tracye Gano are the Executive Directors of Prophezine. Prophezine deals with Bible Prophecy and World Events from a Pre-trib, pre-millennial, dispensationalist stand point. They currently serve close to 70,000 (and growing) people world wide with a weekly newsletters, daily news updates, community based website and Internet radio shows. Ray recently released his latest project “Escape The End Time Money Snare – The CD a multimedia CD co-authored with Wilfred Hahn focusing on how to escape the trappings of mammon and learning how to live simply in God’s abundance.

Please visit Prophezine by going to http://www.prophezine.com