Pre-Wrath Rapture


This is a message of a new wineskin' with regards to prophetic understanding. For this message to have truth and meaning, and to gain understanding from it, you must set aside any preconceived ideas you currently have regarding prophecy that's the new wineskin idea. Consider it in these 2 ways Jesus said that for us to gain heaven, we must have a child-like faith. Also think about what Daniel said that (part of) his vision would be sealed up until the last days.

I recently heard a preacher talking about the parable of the 10 virgins from Matthew 25. He said he thought the virgins represented Christians. I thought about that, then applied this concept to the 144,000 Jews mentioned in Revelation 14. The Bible says they are virgins (some translations say not defiled with women and kept chaste), and without blame. Who are blameless before the Lord today? Christians! (In Revelation 7:3 they're called bond servants). So these 144,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel must be Messianic Jews that are, in other places in the Bible, called the remnant of Israel. Only 144,000 are the remnant.

Want to know what happens to the rest? Go to Ezekiel about midway through chapter 8 and read into chapter 10. Essentially what happens is God marks men in Jerusalem that sigh and groan' over the abominations that are being committed. Then everyone without the mark is slaughtered. Every time I read this, I'm different than I was before. It's like watching a train wreck in slow motion. You can't not watch, even though it's a horrible scene. Some notes here there are six destroyers' that come from the north this matches very closely the vision of the 10 kingdoms in Daniel, minus the 3 that get uprooted by the smaller horn (6 vs. 7 no different than how many angels there were in the tomb after Jesus left it 1 or 2), plus it makes me think of Ezekiel's invasion in chapters 38 and 39, Gog and Magog coming from the north. Finally, the man with the writing case in linens seems to be a Christophany, given that a cloud fills the inner court when he enters it. Also, he is told by God to scatter coals of fire over the city this sounds like the judgment of God when Jesus returns (there are many references of the Messiah/Jesus returning with fire, heat, etc.).

Regarding the return of Jesus, it's my opinion that the rapture will be pre-wrath, not pre-tribulation. This has been an increasingly important topic of study for me recently. I've become very concerned about it because believers are being misled though misunderstanding. Everyone (common Protestant thought) is expecting the Rapture before anything else happens prophetically, and aside from that they're looking for a 7 year peace treaty between Israel and her enemies. They are not expecting to experience tribulation of an end times proportion. They should. Here's why

In Mark 13:24-27, Jesus states this sequence of events tribulation, sun & moon darkening, Son of Man coming in the clouds, angels sent forth to gather the elect. Matthew 24 says about the same thing, but here Jesus specifically mentions gathering His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of EARTH to the farthest end of heaven. This appears to be the rapture, after tribulation and the sun and moon darkening.

Examine at the sequence in Revelation. First are the seals. A close reading shows that these are not judgments not God's wrath. God's wrath starts with the trumpets. Read Revelation 8:3-4 an angel at the alter gives to God much incense and the prayers of the saints, THEN in the next verse he gathers fire (remember our statement a few paragraphs above when the Messiah/Jesus returns with fire and judgment) from the alter and throws it upon the earth. There judgment/God's wrath begins, along with the first trumpet in Rev. 8:7.

The rapture likely takes place somewhere around Rev. 6:14-15. Chapter 7 describes the 144,000 we talked about above being marked and preserved as God's first fruits', a remnant of Israel. Then wrath begins at Rev. 8:7.

Now consider this I heard a preacher say recently that God poured out His wrath upon Jesus at the cross. That's true; it was required as payment for our sins. So for us to avoid this wrath, we must believe in Jesus. Unbelievers alive at the time will experience God's wrath. How is it then that under the old wineskin' concept of a pre-trib rapture that salvation is possible during the wrath of God, which is commonly thought to be the last half of the tribulation?? It only makes sense that God's wrath falls either on Jesus/for believer's or directly on the unbeliever. There are no 2nd chances in this scenario.

This concept becomes more solid when you meld it with this one Most translations say that the seven seals are on a book (some say a scroll). I believe this is the Book of Life. Jesus is the only one possible to open the Book and in doing so he breaks seven seals. Once the seventh seal is broken, that's it! The names have been written in the Book of Life, and now it's open to see who all is in there, and to commence with judgment on those whose names are not in the little book'. (It would seem to take about a ½ hour to read them, given what Rev. 8:1 says.) So back to my previous point, how can salvation be possible after the Book of Life is opened? It's not, when the Book of Life is opened, there are no more entries, thus salvation is not possible thereafter. The key is tribulation verses judgment. As believers in Christ, we can expect tribulation that's what Jesus said. But in both the Old and New Testaments, the Bible declares that the righteous will not experience God's wrath.

Furthermore, I have concerns regarding the reading in both Daniel and Revelation, about the saints being overcome by the beast. If my thoughts and ideas above are correct, then there are no saints here after the rapture (since there would be no saints available to be overcome). So by default there are only saints/believers on earth before the rapture. If we are in the last of the last days, the saints mentioned in Daniel and Revelation are you and me, and every other believer alive today. This thought makes my blood run cold.

One last thing there is no church in heaven. There are only the righteous as found by God. I believe people are incorrect when they put the rapture at Rev. 4:1; that was John being called up for his revelation, not our catching away'. Just because the church isn't mentioned after this doesn't mean anything, other than John's focus turns to individuals (the saints) verses assemblies (the church). Examine this in the original language and this becomes more clear.

I have additional thoughts regarding prophecy (the rebuilt temple, the anti-christ, the 1000 year reign, just to name a few), but that's enough for now! The only thing I ask of you is to read this, then stop and seek a word from God about it. If you are to pursue this topic, God will direct you down this path as he did me.

-John

Article written by John
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kraz
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Great article, John, and an

Great article, John, and an interesting take on the events we may soon see unfold right before us. I would be interested to see what others think as well!

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castille7
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I see the Pre-Rapture like this

God rescued Noah and his family, then through Moses rescued the slaves in Egypt and now the Christians through the way that was made...........by Jesus

Absolutely love this website!

LoueyNorey
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Rapture Issue

[ Recently saw the following web article. Interesting?}

Famous Rapture Watchers - Addendum

by Dave MacPherson

(The statements in my "Famous Rapture Watchers" web article appeared in my 1983 book "The Great Rapture Hoax" and quoted only past leaders. Here are the other leaders who were quoted in that original printing.)

Oswald J. Smith: "...I am absolutely convinced that there will be no rapture before the Tribulation, but that the Church will undoubtedly be called upon to face the Antichrist..." (Tribulation or Rapture - Which?, p. 2).

Paul B. Smith: "You are perfectly free to quote me as believing rather emphatically in the post-tribulation teaching of the Bible" (letter dated June 9, 1976).

S. I. McMillen: "...Christians will suffer in the Great Tribulation" (Discern These Times, p. 55).

Norman F. Douty: "...all of the evidence of history runs one way - in favor of Post-tribulationism" (Has Christ's Return Two Stages?, p. 113).

Leonard Ravenhill: "There is a cowardly Christianity which...still comforts its fainting heart with the hope that there will be a rapture - perhaps today - to catch us away from coming tribulation" (Sodom Had No Bible, p. 94).

William Hendriksen: "...the one and only second coming of Christ to judgment" (Israel in Prophecy, p. 29).

Loraine Boettner: "Hence we conclude that nowhere in Scripture does it teach a secret or pre-tribulation Rapture" (The Millennium, p. 168).

J. Sidlow Baxter: "...believers of the last days (there is only one small part of the total Church on earth at any given moment) will be on earth during the so-called 'Great Tribulation' " (Explore the Book, Vol. 6, p. 345).

Merrill C. Tenney: "There is no convincing reason why the seer's being 'in the Spirit' and being called into heaven [Revelation 4:1-2] typifies the rapture of the church..." (Interpreting Revelation, p. 141).

James R. Graham: "...there is not a line of the N.T. that declares a pre-tribulation rapture, so its advocates are compelled to read it into certain indeterminate texts..." (Watchman, What of the Night?, p. 79).

Ralph Earle: "The teaching of a pre-tribulation rapture seems first to have been emphasized widely about 100 years ago by John Darby of the Plymouth Brethren" (Behold, I Come, p. 74).

Clarence B. Bass: "...I most strongly believe dispensationalism to be a departure from the historic faith..." (Backgrounds to Dispensationalism, p. 155).

William C. Thomas: "The return of Jesus Christ, described by parousia, revelation, and epiphany, is one single, glorious, triumphant event for which we all wait with great eagerness!" (The Blessed Hope in the Thessalonian Epistles of Paul, p. 42).

Harold J. Ockenga: "No exegetical justification exists for the arbitrary separation of the 'coming of Christ' and the 'day of the Lord.' It is one 'day of the Lord Jesus Christ' " (Christian Life, February, 1955).

Duane Edward Spencer: "Paul makes it very clear that the Church will pass through the Great Tribulation" ("Rapture-Tribulation" cassette).

J. C. Maris: "Nowhere the Bible teaches that the Church of Jesus Christ is heading for world dominion. On the contrary - there will be no place for her, save in 'the wilderness,' where God will take care of her (Rev. 12:13-17)" (I.C.C.C. leaflet "The Danger of the Ecumenical Movement," p. 2).

F. F. Bruce: "To meet the Lord [I Thessalonians 4:17]...on the final stage of...[Christ's] journey...to the earth..." (New Bible Commentary: Revised, p. 1159).

G. Christian Weiss: "Some people say that this ['gospel of the kingdom' in Matthew 24:14] is not the gospel of grace but is a special aspect of the gospel to be preached some time in the future. But there is nothing in the context to indicate this" ("Back to the Bible" broadcast, February 9, 1976).

Pat Brooks: "Soon we, in the Body of Christ, will be confronted by millions of people disillusioned by such false teaching [Pre-Tribism]" (Hear, O Israel, p. 186).

Herman Hoeksema: "...the time of Antichrist, when days so terrible are still to arrive for the church..." (Behold, He Cometh!, p. 131).

Ray Summers: "Because they [Philadelphia] have been faithful, he promises his sustaining grace in the tribulation..." (Worthy Is the Lamb, p. 123).

George E. Ladd: "[Pretribulationism] may be guilty of the positive danger of leaving the Church unprepared for tribulation when Antichrist appears..." (The Blessed Hope, p. 164).

Peter Beyerhaus: "The Christian Church on earth [will face] the final, almost superhuman test of being confronted with the apocalyptical temptation by Antichrist" (Christianity Today, April 13, 1973).

Leon Morris: "The early Christians...looked for the Christ to come as Judge" (Apocalyptic, p. 84).

Dale Moody: "There is not a passage in the New Testament to support Scofield. The call to John to 'come up hither' has reference to mystical ecstasy, not to a pretribulation rapture" (Spirit of the Living God, p. 203).

John R. W. Stott: "He would not spare them from the suffering [Revelation 3:10]; but He would uphold them in it" (What Christ Thinks of the Church, p. 104).

G. R. Beasley-Murray: "...the woman, i.e., the Church...flees for refuge into the wilderness [Revelation 12:14]..." (The New Bible Commentary, p. 1184).

Bernard L. Ramm: "...as the Church moves to meet her Lord at the parousia world history is also moving to meet its Judge at the same parousia" (Leo Eddleman's Last Things, p. 41).

J. Barton Payne: "...the twentieth century has indeed witnessed a progressively rising revolt against pre-tribulationism" (The Imminent Appearing of Christ, p. 38).

Robert H. Gundry: "Divine wrath does not blanket the entire seventieth week...but concentrates at the close" (The Church and the Tribulation, p. 63).

C. S. Lovett: "Frankly I favor a post-trib rapture...I no longer teach Christians that they will NOT have to go through the tribulation" (PC, January, 1974).

Walter R. Martin: "Walter Martin finally said...'Yes, I'm a post-trib' " (Lovett's PC, December, 1976).

Jay Adams: "Today's trend is...from pre- to posttribulationism" (The Time Is at Hand, p. 2).

Jim McKeever: "Nowhere do the Scriptures say that the Rapture will precede the Tribulation" (Christians Will Go Through the Tribulation, p. 55).

Arthur Katz: "I think it fair to tell you that I do not subscribe to the happy and convenient theology which says that God's people are going to be raptured and lifted up when a time of tribulation and trial comes" (Reality, p. 8).

Billy Graham: "Perhaps the Holy Spirit is getting His Church ready for a trial and tribulation such as the world has never known" (Sam Shoemaker's Under New Management, p. 72).

W. J. Grier: "The Scofield Bible makes a rather desperate effort...it tries to get in the 'rapture' of the saints before the appearing of Antichrist" (The Momentous Event, p. 58).

Pat Robertson: "Jesus Christ is going to come back to earth again to deliver Israel and at the same time to rapture His Church; it's going to be one moment, but it's going to be a glorious time" ("700 Club" telecast, May 14, 1975).

Ben Kinchlow: "Any wrath [during the Tribulation] that comes upon us - any difficulty - will not be induced by God, but it'll be like the people are saying, 'The cause of our problems are those Christians in our midst; we need to get rid of them' " ("700 Club" telecast, August 28, 1979).

Daniel P. Fuller: "It is thus concluded that Dispensationalism fails to pass the test of an adequate system of Biblical Interpretation" (The Hermeneutics of Dispensationalism, p. 369).

Corrie ten Boom: "The Bible prophesies that the time will come when we cannot buy or sell, unless we bear the sign of the Antichrist..." (Tramp for the Lord, p. 187).

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Shama-Shamar-Kaiya
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Servant, Friend, or Family...

1Thes 2:13 ...and we also (especially) thank God continually for this, that when you received the message of God (which you heard) from us, you welcomed it not as the word of (mere) men, but as it truly is, the Word of God, which is effectually at work in you who believe (exercising its superhuman power in those who adhere to and trust in and rely on it).

Carefully Hear...the Faithfulness of / by the Father...Matzah
Carefully Consider...the Mercy of / by the Son...Shabua
Carefully Live...the Grace of / by the Spirit...Sukkah

Deu 29:29

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ladylpnsman
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Pre-trib rapture

ladylpnsman For God appointed us not into wrath, but unto the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ; 1 Thess 5:9 Many people argue against the pre-trib rapture. The scripture above, in itself, says there is no other rapture except pre-trib. Jesus died for our sins so we could avoid His Fathers wrath. However, if the church had to enter into any part of the tribulation, then, Jesus wasted His time.
Also, the church is mentioned many times in the first three chapters of Revelation, with Rev. 4:1, John is told to "come up here" and the church is gone until the closing moments of the tribulation. Argue all you want, your arguments are all in vain.

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vondean
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pre trib rapture

I totally agree with you. It is stated in the bible that we are saved from the wrath to come. You can not get any clearer than that. If we were to go through some of the tribulation, then why would the rapture be called the blessed hope. The antichrist can not be revealed as long as the Holy Spirit is still on earth. The Holy Spirit resides in each believer. That is another reason why the church is removed at the beginning of the tribulation. I will not have my joy of the rapture tarnished by someone who believes that we will go through some of the tribulation.

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John
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Tribulation is for us, yes...

...but God's wrath, no. There is a difference.

You are making assumptions in your statement as if they are fact... there are several there. For example, where does the Bible say 'the antichrist can not be revealed as long as the Holy Spirit is still on earth'. That is a big assumption... the Bible simply does not say this. I've read arguments, for example, that make a good case that Michael is the restrainer. This is an opinion, not fact, as is much of what you stated.

fearless
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Hi John, I personally don't have a theroy on what stage of the game Jesus will come for us so I can't disagree with you and I really like your article. I am at work right now with a computer and a New Testament. I want to down load an entire KJV but need help from a geek friend to do it right. When I get home tomorrow night I will read Ezekiel 8,9,10. I tried to do so before commenting but could see it would take forever to find those chapters online right now. I recently went to an end times prophecy site that teaches the 7seals, 7trumpets. and 7 viles are the same thing but I felt they were incorrect. You however make alot of scence. I think you may be right about Jesus breaking the seals when He opens the book of life, And we have been warrened about the rain falling on the just and the unjust but I also know that the wrath of God is not for His own because The Lamb was slain and now lives. Another reason I like your article is due to a question my husband had called to my attention. He wonders how can Christians be on earth after the rapture if the Holy Spirit is no longer on earth and there will be a great deciption (project bluebeam.) I am excited to share your ideas with him when I get home. Thank you and God bless.

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Robert1951
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at Revelation 19:11 when Jesus comes back to earth on a white horse and the armies of heaven follow Him.
1st Corinthians 15:52: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last Trumpet. In Revelation 3: 7 thru 12 to the
faithful Church: Jesus says, " I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole earth."
As 1st Thessalonians 5: 9: For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation thru our Lord Jesus Christ.
10: who died for us that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him. 11: Therefore, comfort each
other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.
"Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding." Proverbs 3:5

samesaw
Joined: 03/07/2011
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"wrath"

You said. . . 1st Thessalonians 5: 9: For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation thru our Lord Jesus Christ. Wrath could also mean eternal damnation. Isn't it possible that believers in Christ could go through "wrath" here on earth (the valley of the shadow of death) yet receive salvation for all eternity in the presence of our Lord?
If this is so, then it is entirely possible for believers to suffer wrath here on earth yet receive salvation for all eternity.

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John
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No wrath for believers

Those that are found righteous by God are not subject to His wrath, this is spelled out in detail in both the Old and New Testaments. For us today, Jesus drank the full cup of God's wrath in our place. We will, however, ensure hardships and tribulation as we all surely have, as the Bible indicates.

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castille7
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Pre-Trib Rapture

In these scriptures below, life is carrying on as usual, no sign of tribulations going on and his second coming states here that it will be the same.

Matthew 24
37. But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39. And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Luke 17:27
They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

I love this Iron sharpening Iron
Love your brother
Carrol

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mrhenry
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I totally agree.

I totally agree.

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John
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eating, drinking, marrying, etc.

In general terms, I would agree that this would not seem to meld with the tribulation as I've considered above. But while the seals are being broken, the secular world we live in will attribute these occurrences to the tangible, to things like climate change, and saying things like, "we've always had earthquakes". Simply because it will be on a much larger scale doesn't mean people will think it's biblical end times, as we believers believe.

So in my scenario of a pre-wrath rapture, it may actually be possible for people to be marrying and given in marriage while tribulation type events are happening.

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Prophezine
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Good points John. Here is

Good points John.

Here is some an interesting verse...

Mic 5:5 And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men.
Mic 5:6 And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders.

Clearly we see that the AC is NOT the strongest in the land and in fact we have the seven shepherds and eight principal men who lay waste helping Christ defeat the AC.

Read also Joel 2&3 and the "saints."

I mention this because I have to ask who the saints are, the 7 shepherds, 8 principal men. Could this possibly point to the church being here?

I am interested in hearing your opinion.

In His Service,

Ray

Romans 10: 14 (KJV) - How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?

Romans 10:17 (KJV) - So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God

robrenda
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I thot you were pre-wrath

Ray,

I had my suspicions that you were pre-wrath, but you would never admit to it! That will help you sell more survival stuff, for christians who think that they're going to be going through much of the 7 year trib. If you read Rev. 6 very carefully, it definitely says that the 7 seals are the beginning of God's wrath. Couple that with Daniel's seventieth week, set aside for the chosen Nation of Israel. And it is clearly seen that the church doesn't belong here during this time. And he word "saints" can be applied to Jews as well as christians. (Dan.7:18)

I wonder if you have told your supporters that you're Pre-wrath! Which is fine with me, but misleading to say the least.

Good talking with you again

Rob

malene51
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Rapture and Book of Life

John, an interesting article. I'd like to make a couple of points. Revelation 20:15 indicates the Book of Life is opened at the end of the Millenium at "the Great White Throne" judgment, and not during the tribulation/wrath period. Though there are scrolls, bowls, trumpets, and other happenings during the time of trouble, the Revelation makes it clear that there will be people on the earth at the end of the tribulation/wrath period that have not taken the mark of the beast and have somehow survived the terrible things happening on the earth. In fact, according to the Revelation, about 2/3 to 7/8 of life on the earth is destroyed. Those people left on the earth may or may not have called on Jesus for salvation, but the Bible specifically and clearly states that "whoever calls on the Name of the Lord will be saved," and that is in direct reference to this period.
According to the Revelation, when Jesus comes back at the end of the seven year period He will throw the false prophet and the beast into the lake of fire. But Lucifer will only be bound for a thousand years. At the end of that period Lucifer will rally nations against Jesus' throne and will also be vanquished (forever this time, hallelujah!) and thrown into outer darkness. This means that children will be born to people during the Millenium. If that were not the case, then where would Lucifer find "nations" to rally against Jesus' throne? Isaiah also makes it clear that there will be mortal children on the earth during the Millenium. He indicates that "a child will die at a hundred years old..." If children are born on the earth, they must have the same opportunity for salvation that any other human being on this planet has had throughout the ages - or else God is a liar. And we know that is not the case.
We are purposely kept "in the dark" about the time of the Rapture because Jesus is coming "to those who are looking" for Him. The whole purpose of this kind of "secrecy" is for us to trust Him and not lean to our own understanding of things. If we lived in any other country in the world, we would have a hard time believing that we have not already entered into the time of great trouble - just ask Christians in the Sudan, the Congo, in Yemen and Somalia, in India and many other countries who have already been martyred for their faith.
We are truly, as you surmise, in the last throes of this aeon...and we will have tribulation in this world. But take heart! Our Champion, Jesus, has overcome the world. The kingdoms of this world will become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ, and He will reign forever and ever! Glory to His Name.
I appreciate the time you took with this article, but think you should apply a little more time and study to some of your conclusions...there's a whole Bible out there and if we're going to extrapolate doctrine, it has to agree with "the whole counsel of God"...Keep Searching!

Will
Joined: 04/26/2010
Posts: 51

I want to believe that we as

I want to believe that we as Christians will not suffer. But if we do then so be it. Small price to pay for such a big reward. Pre- Mid- or Post, in the end, Jesus, forever. If He brings me to it, He will see me thru it. To what end is up to Him. All good points from all of you. If we could just put that much fire into proving to nonbelievers that there is a wrath coming man just think of all the crowns that would be handed out. God bless.

mark
Joined: 05/25/2010
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The world is a growing object but the hands that hold it together is our lord the redeemer and when its time he will call for his bride and we will be made like him and see him as he is AMEN.....

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pookaloo2005
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alot of great comments from

alot of great comments from everyone.... the part that always come to mind for me is the fact that Jesus said no man knows the hour or the day.. correct me if i'm wrong... but doesn't God's wrath fall after the abomination of desolation takes place 3 1/2 years into the tribulation? if that be the case.. doesn't daniel say it will be 1260 days after that time Jesus will return to earth? woudn't that be like knowing the day? ibelieve in my hesrt there will be a "catching away" whenever it does happen i just want to be counted worthy to escape these things. Let's reach the lost!

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lost_and_found
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Amen, Jesus said I this world

Amen, Jesus said, in this world ye shall have tribulation but be of good cheer I have overcome the world.

wetrukin
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Be Ready!

I believe we are so close to fulfillment of God's Word. Closer than any one realizes. I've heard the debate of when "the rapture" will occur. Regardless of when it happens, we must all be ready for whatever God calls us to do. The debate needs to be set aside, and we should be busy preparing for whatever happens. I feel a deep urgency in my spirit, a quickening, that God is telling all of us to BE READY!

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pookaloo2005
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Vision From Pastor Cathie Miller

hi brothers and sisters in Christ! i just wanted to share this with you all to encourage you.. here is the original link... http://www.rapture5770-5775.com/visionsdreams.htm i find it interesting that this vision was received 10/25/09.. but when we look at the world today...(when you read it you'll understand) Be encouraged and be blessed! by the way i'm not pastor miller, i just found this on that website and thought it would encourage us all.

Vision From Pastor Cathie Miller
Oct 25 2009 04:42PM
I thought long and hard about sending this message. I have a ministry that has been devoted to uplifting, encouraging and edifying God's hurting people. I like people to know that no matter what is going on in your life God is still in control. He has a glorious plan for your life to give you hope and a future.
I believe that more than ever these days we need to keep that in mind! We have no need to fear, because our God is in control. He knows what is happening and what is going to happen because He has always known from before the beginning of time.
Having said that I know that those of you who know me well and have followed my ministry know that occasionally God gives me prophetic dreams and visions. I got one three days prior to 911 and I got one within three days of the Minneapolis bridge collapse, several years ago.

It had been frustrating to me for God to let me see these, and other things , in advance. I prayed and asked God the following "Why let me know these things Father if I can do nothing to stop them?
After much fasting and praying God spoke to me one day, a few years ago, the following "So that when these things happen, your heart will not grow faint. You will realize, without a shadow of a doubt that nothing catches Me unaware. You will know that I am in control and you , and the ones you share these things with, will rest in peace with that knowledge.
Last night I had a very vivid vision. I was standing in front of a huge pot of liquid, in this vision. The pot was simmering nicely. As I looked I saw a huge hand reaching down and grasping "things and tossing them into the pot. The hand reached down and grasped a scroll called banks, and threw it in the pot.
The hand reached down and grasped a scroll called automobiles and threw it in the pot. The liquid in the pot started to rise and boil slightly. Then the hand grasped a scroll called mortgages and threw it in, then a scroll called jobs, and then one called HINI and the liquid started to boil a bit harder, then a scroll called Iraq, then Afghanistan.
The hand grabbed one scroll named Earthquakes, floods, tornadoes, tsunami's and hurricanes. Finally I watched as the hand grasped one called Iran and then one called Israel. It was then that the pot started to boil harder and harder.
I could see that the pot was going to boil over and splash everywhere in a huge mess and I went to look for the heat control to turn it off. I couldn't find the knob. I became frantic to stop it and I couldn't. I started to grab a towel to clean up the mess and I heard the voice of God speak the following "It's to late to stop the boiling over, it's too late to clean up the mess.
I then begin to cry and asked God "What can I do, what should I do, and who should I tell. I heard God say to me the following "Tell people to make sure that they are where they should be with me, tell them to get rid of anything immediately that is not of me. I have never been closer to the door then I am tonight. Tell them not to fear what they will see and hear for I am in the midst of my believers. I will show them where do go and what to do. I have surrounded them with my messengers. The vision began to fade and I said to Him "When, Lord? I received no answer, but in my mind I heard the words "Be still and know that I am God.
I prayed about this message and sending it out. I don't want to frighten anyone. I do want to say to you ,as you read this tonight, make sure before your heads hit the pillow tonight that if you have anything you are not giving to himGIVE IT UP.
Repent from secret sins and make sure tonight and every night that you are where you know, that you know, God means for you to be! If you need to ask someone for forgiveness, and you can do it, pick up the phone and ask them for forgiveness. If someone has hurt you , needlessly, to the point your heart is breaking, pray for them and for you to forgive them. There has never been a more urgent time to get things right!
I feel the time is coming very, very soon when we will all be gathered together with Him. We will share a meal at the "marriage feast of the Bridegroom. Until then, whatever happens "BE STILL AND KNOW THAT HE IS GOD.
As AlwaysI am
In His Love and Service,
Pastor Cat Miller
www.helpforgodshurtingpeople.com

robrenda
Joined: 02/13/2011
Posts: 4

Cathie, You need to read the

Cathie,

You need to read the Bible! Your vision is meaningless without support of the Scriptures! I have no problem with you sharing your viewpoint on Biblical truthes, but I want to hear from the Bible, God's voice to His Church, Not from Cathie Miller. Satan has fooled more people with visions. His goal is to get God's people to study & know his Word. For it is the from the Bible that we get life's answers, not from dreams and visions.

Sincerely in Christ,
parsonRob

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pookaloo2005
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Posts: 877

parson rob

i had posted this vision way back when... when i thought everyone's vision or dream had significance. God has since shown me that not every vision or dream is from Him...and that people get caught up in the dreams/ visions and forget about seeking His face for truth and guidance...

samesaw
Joined: 03/07/2011
Posts: 4

Dreams and visions

Joseph had a vision of his brothers (sheaths of wheat) bowing down to him.
Joseph had the interpretation of Pharo's dream about the seven fat cows and the seven thin cows.
John had the vision of the Holy Spirit descending on Jesus at His baptism.
Joseph had a dream from an Angel of God to flee to Egypt with Mary and the Child.
Etc. Etc. PS the Bible was not yet written in it's entirety (in book form at least) Jesus is the Word of God.
In the beginning was the word and the word was God. When you hear a Word of God it is Jesus speaking to you. Your Father in Heaven, the Holy Spirit (Giver of Life) and his only begotten Son Jesus Christ are one God.

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John
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Dreams from below

It's my opinion that Satan can influence our dreams. This I know has occurred with me personally. It seems many, many people attribute most or all dreams to God, but it don't believe this is the case. You quoted many dream instances from the Bible, and that's great! Here's another that may support Satanic influence in dreams:

Now when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and behold, horror and great darkness fell upon him (Gen. 15:12).

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tracy b.
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Posts: 1259

but leave room for God to move

I think it must be emphasized that God can (and indeed does) communicate with His people in many different ways, including dreams/visions. I also agree that you have to use discernment since Satan can infiltrate as well. But I think the sole purpose of some God dreams is to share with other people (also He can use them to prepare you for something, to encourage prayer, action or wisdom on a situation/person/area, etc.). The Bible clearly states by examples (others have listed examples here so I won't). But when He puts a burden on you to share a dream/vision, you do it. Even if people raise their eyebrows, discount it, or persecute you for it. Who knows if this Cathie Miller felt that God push to share? Only she and God. And it's between you/God whether or not you choose to believe it. Take it all to Him, ask for Wisdom and His guidance, and He'll show you.

I'm passionate about this topic because God sent me a dream once about this woman I hardly knew; she freelanced at my office; my very liberal, politically-correct office, mind you. The only things I knew about her was her first name and that she was gay. The Lord sent me a dream one night about her. He showed me a very detailed picture of her in her house, ending a phone conversation (and a relationship). She was brokenhearted, crying while sitting at a desk. He let me feel her agony for a moment and then told me, "Tell her I love her." In my thoughts, I was hesitant about approaching a virtual stranger who happened to be gay and tell her I (a woman) had a dream about her the night before; afraid she would misunderstand my motives. The Lord said, "She will not think this. Tell her I love her." There was no doubt in my mind that this dream was real and from God. I knew it "in my bones," by His Spirit within me.

The next day I went in, knowing I was probably going to get fired for what I was going to do if she complained. But I was more scared of disappointing my God than anybody else. I went to her office space, started talking and shared everything. I described the scene, down to her sitting at a desk sobbing and hanging up the phone and she turned pale. Said it happened the night before. She said I must be psychic. I told her that no, I was a Christian who loved Jesus and this dream was not of me, it was from God. That I was nothing special. And then I told her His message.

She started crying then; shared with me that she was thinking about dating men again (she had been abused by a family member as a child and had severe trust issues with men). I was awed by our Father then. Not when she told me the dream was true; I already knew that. But here was this broken woman sitting in front of me at a very pivotal, critical time in her life and God so loved her that He sent her a message in her time of need; was calling to her. I never knew what she did, what she decided, but I know she heard His message. And I am completely humbled that He used me to tell her, and so relieved that I didn't run away from it.

I understand the call for discernment and Scripture support, but sometimes He moves in mysterious ways that are hard to explain unless it's between you/Him in that particular situation. All I'm saying...

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pookaloo2005
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thanks for sharing tracyb.

thanks for sharing tracyb. your story touched me in so many ways, especially in the area of being obedient to our Lord when He tells us to do something...thank you

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tracy b.
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absolutely, pookaloo!

Thanks for listening...

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