Pre-Wrath Rapture

Posted by John on May 06, 2009

Prophecy

This is a message of a ‘new wineskin’ with regards to prophetic understanding. For this message to have truth and meaning, and to gain understanding from it, you must set aside any preconceived ideas you currently have regarding prophecy… that’s the new wineskin idea. Consider it in these 2 ways… Jesus said that for us to gain heaven, we must have a child-like faith. Also think about what Daniel said… that (part of) his vision would be sealed up until the last days.

I recently heard a preacher talking about the parable of the 10 virgins from Matthew 25. He said he thought the virgins represented Christians. I thought about that, then applied this concept to the 144,000 Jews mentioned in Revelation 14. The Bible says they are virgins (some translations say not defiled with women and kept chaste), and without blame. Who are blameless before the Lord today? Christians! (In Revelation 7:3 they’re called bond servants). So these 144,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel must be Messianic Jews that are, in other places in the Bible, called the remnant of Israel. Only 144,000 are the remnant.

Want to know what happens to the rest? Go to Ezekiel about midway through chapter 8 and read into chapter 10. Essentially what happens is God marks men in Jerusalem that ‘sigh and groan’ over the abominations that are being committed. Then everyone without the mark is slaughtered. Every time I read this, I’m different than I was before. It’s like watching a train wreck in slow motion. You can’t not watch, even though it’s a horrible scene. Some notes here… there are six ‘destroyers’ that come from the north… this matches very closely the vision of the 10 kingdoms in Daniel, minus the 3 that get uprooted by the smaller horn (6 vs. 7… no different than how many angels there were in the tomb after Jesus left it… 1 or 2), plus it makes me think of Ezekiel’s invasion in chapters 38 and 39, Gog and Magog coming from the north. Finally, the man with the writing case in linens seems to be a Christophany, given that a cloud fills the inner court when he enters it. Also, he is told by God to scatter coals of fire over the city… this sounds like the judgment of God when Jesus returns (there are many references of the Messiah/Jesus returning with fire, heat, etc.).

Regarding the return of Jesus, it’s my opinion that the rapture will be pre-wrath, not pre-tribulation. This has been an increasingly important topic of study for me recently. I’ve become very concerned about it because believers are being misled though misunderstanding. Everyone (common Protestant thought) is expecting the Rapture before anything else happens prophetically, and aside from that they’re looking for a 7 year peace treaty between Israel and her enemies. They are not expecting to experience tribulation of an end times proportion. They should. Here’s why…

In Mark 13:24-27, Jesus states this sequence of events… tribulation, sun & moon darkening, Son of Man coming in the clouds, angels sent forth to gather the elect. Matthew 24 says about the same thing, but here Jesus specifically mentions gathering His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of EARTH to the farthest end of heaven. This appears to be the rapture, after tribulation and the sun and moon darkening.

Examine at the sequence in Revelation. First are the seals. A close reading shows that these are not judgments… not God’s wrath. God’s wrath starts with the trumpets. Read Revelation 8:3-4… an angel at the alter gives to God much incense and the prayers of the saints, THEN in the next verse he gathers fire (remember our statement a few paragraphs above when the Messiah/Jesus returns with fire and judgment) from the alter and throws it upon the earth. There judgment/God’s wrath begins, along with the first trumpet in Rev. 8:7.

The rapture likely takes place somewhere around Rev. 6:14-15. Chapter 7 describes the 144,000 we talked about above being marked and preserved as God’s ‘first fruits’, a remnant of Israel. Then wrath begins at Rev. 8:7.

Now consider this… I heard a preacher say recently that God poured out His wrath upon Jesus at the cross. That’s true; it was required as payment for our sins. So for us to avoid this wrath, we must believe in Jesus. Unbelievers alive at the time will experience God’s wrath. How is it then that under the ‘old wineskin’ concept of a pre-trib rapture that salvation is possible during the wrath of God, which is commonly thought to be the last half of the tribulation?? It only makes sense that God’s wrath falls either on Jesus/for believer’s or directly on the unbeliever. There are no 2nd chances in this scenario.

This concept becomes more solid when you meld it with this one… Most translations say that the seven seals are on a book (some say a scroll). I believe this is the Book of Life. Jesus is the only one possible to open the Book and in doing so he breaks seven seals. Once the seventh seal is broken, that’s it! The names have been written in the Book of Life, and now it’s open to see who all is in there, and to commence with judgment on those whose names are not in the ‘little book’. (It would seem to take about a ½ hour to read them, given what Rev. 8:1 says.) So back to my previous point, how can salvation be possible after the Book of Life is opened? It’s not, when the Book of Life is opened, there are no more entries, thus salvation is not possible thereafter. The key is tribulation verses judgment. As believers in Christ, we can expect tribulation… that’s what Jesus said. But in both the Old and New Testaments, the Bible declares that the righteous will not experience God’s wrath.

Furthermore, I have concerns regarding the reading in both Daniel and Revelation, about the saints being overcome by the beast. If my thoughts and ideas above are correct, then there are no saints here after the rapture (since there would be no saints available to be overcome). So by default there are only saints/believers on earth before the rapture. If we are in the last of the last days, the saints mentioned in Daniel and Revelation are you and me, and every other believer alive today. This thought makes my blood run cold.

One last thing… there is no church in heaven. There are only the righteous as found by God. I believe people are incorrect when they put the rapture at Rev. 4:1; that was John being called up for his revelation, not our ‘catching away’. Just because the church isn’t mentioned after this doesn’t mean anything, other than John’s focus turns to individuals (the saints) verses assemblies (the church). Examine this in the original language and this becomes more clear.

I have additional thoughts regarding prophecy (the rebuilt temple, the anti-christ, the 1000 year reign, just to name a few), but that’s enough for now! The only thing I ask of you is to read this, then stop and seek a word from God about it. If you are to pursue this topic, God will direct you down this path as he did me.

-John

Article written by John

Great article, John, and an

Submitted by kraz on Wed, 05/06/2009 - 07:26.

Great article, John, and an interesting take on the events we may soon see unfold right before us. I would be interested to see what others think as well!

I see the Pre-Rapture like this

Submitted by castille7 on Fri, 11/20/2009 - 23:38.

God rescued Noah and his family, then through Moses rescued the slaves in Egypt and now the Christians through the way that was made...........by Jesus

Absolutely love this website.....Rap-Con!

Rapture Issue

Submitted by LoueyNorey on Sat, 05/23/2009 - 01:48.

[ Recently saw the following web article. Interesting?}

Famous Rapture Watchers - Addendum

by Dave MacPherson

(The statements in my "Famous Rapture Watchers" web article appeared in my 1983 book "The Great Rapture Hoax" and quoted only past leaders. Here are the other leaders who were quoted in that original printing.)

Oswald J. Smith: "...I am absolutely convinced that there will be no rapture before the Tribulation, but that the Church will undoubtedly be called upon to face the Antichrist..." (Tribulation or Rapture - Which?, p. 2).

Paul B. Smith: "You are perfectly free to quote me as believing rather emphatically in the post-tribulation teaching of the Bible" (letter dated June 9, 1976).

S. I. McMillen: "...Christians will suffer in the Great Tribulation" (Discern These Times, p. 55).

Norman F. Douty: "...all of the evidence of history runs one way - in favor of Post-tribulationism" (Has Christ's Return Two Stages?, p. 113).

Leonard Ravenhill: "There is a cowardly Christianity which...still comforts its fainting heart with the hope that there will be a rapture - perhaps today - to catch us away from coming tribulation" (Sodom Had No Bible, p. 94).

William Hendriksen: "...the one and only second coming of Christ to judgment" (Israel in Prophecy, p. 29).

Loraine Boettner: "Hence we conclude that nowhere in Scripture does it teach a secret or pre-tribulation Rapture" (The Millennium, p. 168).

J. Sidlow Baxter: "...believers of the last days (there is only one small part of the total Church on earth at any given moment) will be on earth during the so-called 'Great Tribulation' " (Explore the Book, Vol. 6, p. 345).

Merrill C. Tenney: "There is no convincing reason why the seer's being 'in the Spirit' and being called into heaven [Revelation 4:1-2] typifies the rapture of the church..." (Interpreting Revelation, p. 141).

James R. Graham: "...there is not a line of the N.T. that declares a pre-tribulation rapture, so its advocates are compelled to read it into certain indeterminate texts..." (Watchman, What of the Night?, p. 79).

Ralph Earle: "The teaching of a pre-tribulation rapture seems first to have been emphasized widely about 100 years ago by John Darby of the Plymouth Brethren" (Behold, I Come, p. 74).

Clarence B. Bass: "...I most strongly believe dispensationalism to be a departure from the historic faith..." (Backgrounds to Dispensationalism, p. 155).

William C. Thomas: "The return of Jesus Christ, described by parousia, revelation, and epiphany, is one single, glorious, triumphant event for which we all wait with great eagerness!" (The Blessed Hope in the Thessalonian Epistles of Paul, p. 42).

Harold J. Ockenga: "No exegetical justification exists for the arbitrary separation of the 'coming of Christ' and the 'day of the Lord.' It is one 'day of the Lord Jesus Christ' " (Christian Life, February, 1955).

Duane Edward Spencer: "Paul makes it very clear that the Church will pass through the Great Tribulation" ("Rapture-Tribulation" cassette).

J. C. Maris: "Nowhere the Bible teaches that the Church of Jesus Christ is heading for world dominion. On the contrary - there will be no place for her, save in 'the wilderness,' where God will take care of her (Rev. 12:13-17)" (I.C.C.C. leaflet "The Danger of the Ecumenical Movement," p. 2).

F. F. Bruce: "To meet the Lord [I Thessalonians 4:17]...on the final stage of...[Christ's] journey...to the earth..." (New Bible Commentary: Revised, p. 1159).

G. Christian Weiss: "Some people say that this ['gospel of the kingdom' in Matthew 24:14] is not the gospel of grace but is a special aspect of the gospel to be preached some time in the future. But there is nothing in the context to indicate this" ("Back to the Bible" broadcast, February 9, 1976).

Pat Brooks: "Soon we, in the Body of Christ, will be confronted by millions of people disillusioned by such false teaching [Pre-Tribism]" (Hear, O Israel, p. 186).

Herman Hoeksema: "...the time of Antichrist, when days so terrible are still to arrive for the church..." (Behold, He Cometh!, p. 131).

Ray Summers: "Because they [Philadelphia] have been faithful, he promises his sustaining grace in the tribulation..." (Worthy Is the Lamb, p. 123).

George E. Ladd: "[Pretribulationism] may be guilty of the positive danger of leaving the Church unprepared for tribulation when Antichrist appears..." (The Blessed Hope, p. 164).

Peter Beyerhaus: "The Christian Church on earth [will face] the final, almost superhuman test of being confronted with the apocalyptical temptation by Antichrist" (Christianity Today, April 13, 1973).

Leon Morris: "The early Christians...looked for the Christ to come as Judge" (Apocalyptic, p. 84).

Dale Moody: "There is not a passage in the New Testament to support Scofield. The call to John to 'come up hither' has reference to mystical ecstasy, not to a pretribulation rapture" (Spirit of the Living God, p. 203).

John R. W. Stott: "He would not spare them from the suffering [Revelation 3:10]; but He would uphold them in it" (What Christ Thinks of the Church, p. 104).

G. R. Beasley-Murray: "...the woman, i.e., the Church...flees for refuge into the wilderness [Revelation 12:14]..." (The New Bible Commentary, p. 1184).

Bernard L. Ramm: "...as the Church moves to meet her Lord at the parousia world history is also moving to meet its Judge at the same parousia" (Leo Eddleman's Last Things, p. 41).

J. Barton Payne: "...the twentieth century has indeed witnessed a progressively rising revolt against pre-tribulationism" (The Imminent Appearing of Christ, p. 38).

Robert H. Gundry: "Divine wrath does not blanket the entire seventieth week...but concentrates at the close" (The Church and the Tribulation, p. 63).

C. S. Lovett: "Frankly I favor a post-trib rapture...I no longer teach Christians that they will NOT have to go through the tribulation" (PC, January, 1974).

Walter R. Martin: "Walter Martin finally said...'Yes, I'm a post-trib' " (Lovett's PC, December, 1976).

Jay Adams: "Today's trend is...from pre- to posttribulationism" (The Time Is at Hand, p. 2).

Jim McKeever: "Nowhere do the Scriptures say that the Rapture will precede the Tribulation" (Christians Will Go Through the Tribulation, p. 55).

Arthur Katz: "I think it fair to tell you that I do not subscribe to the happy and convenient theology which says that God's people are going to be raptured and lifted up when a time of tribulation and trial comes" (Reality, p. 8).

Billy Graham: "Perhaps the Holy Spirit is getting His Church ready for a trial and tribulation such as the world has never known" (Sam Shoemaker's Under New Management, p. 72).

W. J. Grier: "The Scofield Bible makes a rather desperate effort...it tries to get in the 'rapture' of the saints before the appearing of Antichrist" (The Momentous Event, p. 58).

Pat Robertson: "Jesus Christ is going to come back to earth again to deliver Israel and at the same time to rapture His Church; it's going to be one moment, but it's going to be a glorious time" ("700 Club" telecast, May 14, 1975).

Ben Kinchlow: "Any wrath [during the Tribulation] that comes upon us - any difficulty - will not be induced by God, but it'll be like the people are saying, 'The cause of our problems are those Christians in our midst; we need to get rid of them' " ("700 Club" telecast, August 28, 1979).

Daniel P. Fuller: "It is thus concluded that Dispensationalism fails to pass the test of an adequate system of Biblical Interpretation" (The Hermeneutics of Dispensationalism, p. 369).

Corrie ten Boom: "The Bible prophesies that the time will come when we cannot buy or sell, unless we bear the sign of the Antichrist..." (Tramp for the Lord, p. 187).

Pre-trib rapture

Submitted by ladylpnsman on Tue, 05/26/2009 - 12:42.

ladylpnsman For God appointed us not into wrath, but unto the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ; 1 Thess 5:9 Many people argue against the pre-trib rapture. The scripture above, in itself, says there is no other rapture except pre-trib. Jesus died for our sins so we could avoid His Fathers wrath. However, if the church had to enter into any part of the tribulation, then, Jesus wasted His time.
Also, the church is mentioned many times in the first three chapters of Revelation, with Rev. 4:1, John is told to "come up here" and the church is gone until the closing moments of the tribulation. Argue all you want, your arguments are all in vain.

Whenever it happens we're gonna see JESUS! :)

Submitted by fearless on Tue, 08/11/2009 - 02:33.

Hi John, I personally don't have a theroy on what stage of the game Jesus will come for us so I can't disagree with you and I really like your article. I am at work right now with a computer and a New Testament. I want to down load an entire KJV but need help from a geek friend to do it right. When I get home tomorrow night I will read Ezekiel 8,9,10. I tried to do so before commenting but could see it would take forever to find those chapters online right now. I recently went to an end times prophecy site that teaches the 7seals, 7trumpets. and 7 viles are the same thing but I felt they were incorrect. You however make alot of scence. I think you may be right about Jesus breaking the seals when He opens the book of life, And we have been warrened about the rain falling on the just and the unjust but I also know that the wrath of God is not for His own because The Lamb was slain and now lives. Another reason I like your article is due to a question my husband had called to my attention. He wonders how can Christians be on earth after the rapture if the Holy Spirit is no longer on earth and there will be a great deciption (project bluebeam.) I am excited to share your ideas with him when I get home. Thank you and God bless.

The Rapture can take place at any time, the 2nd coming happens

Submitted by Robert1951 on Mon, 09/07/2009 - 23:53.

at Revelation 19:11 when Jesus comes back to earth on a white horse and the armies of heaven follow Him.
1st Corinthians 15:52: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last Trumpet. In Revelation 3: 7 thru 12 to the
faithful Church: Jesus says, " I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole earth."
As 1st Thessalonians 5: 9: For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation thru our Lord Jesus Christ.
10: who died for us that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him. 11: Therefore, comfort each
other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.
"Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding." Proverbs 3:5

Pre-Trib Rapture

Submitted by castille7 on Tue, 09/08/2009 - 22:45.

In these scriptures below, life is carrying on as usual, no sign of tribulations going on and his second coming states here that it will be the same.

Matthew 24
37. But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39. And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Luke 17:27
They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

I love this Iron sharpening Iron
Love your brother
Carrol

I totally agree.

Submitted by mrhenry on Wed, 09/09/2009 - 15:39.

I totally agree.

Good points John. Here is

Submitted by Prophezine on Thu, 09/10/2009 - 20:37.

Good points John.

Here is some an interesting verse...

Mic 5:5 And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men.
Mic 5:6 And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders.

Clearly we see that the AC is NOT the strongest in the land and in fact we have the seven shepherds and eight principal men who lay waste helping Christ defeat the AC.

Submit New

Post a News Story

Post Commentary

All of Rap-con's content is submitted by people like you! Please login or register to join in.

Most Relevant last 30 days

Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

— Luke 21:33

Rap-Con.com is a community of people who post news articles end editorials concerning Bible prophecy.
All views and opinions expressed are those of the individual posting them and are not necessarily the views of Rap-Con.com or its operators.