Lisa Ling Asks: Is It Possible to Be Both Gay and Christian?


It's a conversation that has never gone away, but on Tuesday night, journalist Lisa Ling catapulted the debate on Christianity and homosexuality back into the spotlight. The longtime television journalist, whose new series is on OWN (Oprah Winfrey Network), sought to find answers to a question that continues to be asked today: Is it possible to be gay and Christian at the same time?
For 17 students at The Naming Project's summer camp, it is.

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Graftedgentile's picture
Graftedgentile's analysis:
The Day of judgment for the people that lead others into the pit of hell is going to be unimaginable. My understanding of hell is , there are many differing level's of torment and punishment.....Pray for those who are being mislead by the children of Satan. Romans1:32

CounselingWithX
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It is you that is

It is you that is misinterpreting the scripture, not me.

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pookaloo2005
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should christians judge?

Should Christians Judge?

by Richard Winstead
Atlanta, GA

http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~cmadd01/shouldju.html

Let's start with a pop quiz: What does it mean to judge?

You don't have to answer that right now; that's what we're going to look at in this study.

Have you ever sought to confront wrong-doing, or reprove someone, only to be met with, "You can't judge me!" or "Christians aren't supposed to judge!" What does God's Word say about judging?

When the subject of judging comes up among believers, the first place most Christians go to is Matthew 7:1.

Matthew 7:1.
Judge not, that ye be not judged.

Most people will stop right there, and conclude, "Jesus said don't judge." But we've got to read on to see this in context, so that we can determine what he was really saying.

Matthew 7:2.
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with the measure which ye measure with, it shall be measured to you again.
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thy own eye?
Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thy eye; and, behold, a beam [is] in thy own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thy own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Now it becomes clear. Jesus wasn't saying, "Don't judge." He was saying, "Don't judge your brother without first judging yourself." His exhortation was to remove the plank or beam from your brother's eye first, so that you can see clearly to remove the speck of sawdust from your brother's eye.

Part of the problem we have with judging is that when people say "judge" they usually mean or imply "condemn." But judging means much more than that.

"To judge" means "to make a distinction" or "to separate." You judge every day, in every aspect of life. You had to make a judgment in order to decide what clothes to wear today, or what to eat. You are also responsible for judging between truth and error.

When we look at scripture on judging, it is important that we pay attention to who is being addressed.
Romans 2:1.
Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whoever thou art that judgest: for in that thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

At first glance, this verse seems to forbid judging, and to warn that when you judge someone else, you are condemning yourself. But who is it talking to? Those who judge others for doing the same things they are doing. If you fall into that category, then you are indeed condemning yourself when you judge someone else! But this is not a blanket prohibition against judging.

What God wants is not for us to avoid judging, but instead to judge rightly.

Luke 7:40-43.
And Jesus answering said to him, Simon, I have somewhat to say to thee. And he saith, Master, speak.
There was a certain creditor who had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty.
And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?
Simon answered and said, I suppose that [he], to whom he forgave most. And he said to him, Thou hast rightly judged.

In this passage, Jesus invited Simon the Pharisee to make a judgment, then commended him when he judged rightly. God wants us to make right, or righteous, judgments.

How do we do this? Let's start by looking at how not to judge.

John 7:21-24.
Jesus answered and said to them, I have done one work, and ye all marvel.
Moses therefore gave to you circumcision; (not because it is from Moses, but from the fathers;) and ye on the sabbath circumcise a man.
If a man on the sabbath receiveth circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have restored a man to sound health on the sabbath?
Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

Here Jesus answered some of his critics who had judged his works, but not righteously. What did they do wrong? They judged by mere appearance.

Our goal must not be just to judge, but rather to "judge righteous judgment."

Proverbs 14:12 shows us another way we're not supposed to judge.

There is a way which seemeth right to a man, but the end of it [are] the ways of death.

It's very easy for me to establish my own standard for right and wrong, and to judge others according to that standard -- but that, too, is judging wrongly. If we are going to "judge righteous judgment," we must not judge by man's standard, which is flawed to begin with, but by God's standard.

Within the Church, disputes will arise from time to time. Settling these disputes requires judgment.

I Corinthians 6:1-4.
Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.

Ask those who are least esteemed in the Church to judge things pertaining to this life? Whoa! That's a different way of looking at things!

If a dispute between God's people goes to the secular courts, to the legal system, who does the judging? Usually, men and women who don't have the spirit of God. By what standard do they judge? By God's standard, or by the imperfect standards of this world? By the world's standards, of course. And what kind of judgment can be expected? A godly decision, or a worldly one? A worldly decision, contrary to the Word of God, is almost guaranteed.

In the Church, it should not be a big matter for any believer to settle a dispute or render judgment in a matter pertaining to the things of this life -- if the church is functioning properly, and not according to the world's standards.

I Corinthians 6:5-6.
I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before unbelievers.

Instead of insisting on believers judging between believers, the saints in Corinth were running to the world to settle their disputes. What kind of witness is that to the world: two Christians having it out in front of unbelievers? What does it say about our maturity as Christians when we can't be humble enough to be judged by our fellow believers, but we will submit ourselves to the judgments of those who do not obey God?
I Corinthians 6:7-8.
Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather [allow yourselves to] be defrauded?
But, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that [your] brethren.

My flesh may cry out, "Wait a minute! Don't I have rights?" But the Word of God testifies that it is better to lose what is rightfully ours than to allow unbelievers to decide a dispute between believers.

I Corinthians 11:28.
But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of [that] bread, and drink of [that] cup.

Each of us is responsible before God to judge himself. Ask yourself: Do I have a plank in my eye? Even if someone asks me for my judgment, if I have a plank in my eye in that area, that is, if my walk with God is not right in that area, I should either deal with my own plank first, or decline to give judgment.

The real key to judging righteous judgment is self judgment. Start with yourself; judge yourself first.

I Corinthians 11:31-32.
For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

When the Lord judges us, He disciplines us. It's much less painful for you to judge yourself than for you to wait for the Lord to correct you.

One of the fruit of the spirit is self-control. If a child does not exercise self-control in an area, discipline must be imposed on him externally for his own protection and growth. This may involve loss of blessings or privileges, or even physical discipline. That's the same way God works with us. If we exercise self-control ourselves, there is no need for disciplinary action in our lives by God.

Ephesians 5:1-6.
Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
But immorality, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not seemly: but rather giving of thanks.
For this ye know, that no immoral, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Let no one deceive you with empty words like, "Don't be judgmental," or, "You can't judge me."

Ephesians 5:7.
Be ye not therefore partakers with them.

If you don't exercise righteous judgment, how will you know who or what to be a partner with?

Ephesians 5:8-10.
For ye were once darkness, but now [are ye] light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
(For the fruit of the Spirit [is] in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
Proving what is acceptable to the Lord.

Everything doesn't please God! You've got to judge between what is of God, and what is not!

Ephesians 5:11.
And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove [them].

How do you expose darkness? By shedding the light of God's Word on it!

Ephesians 5:12-17.
For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret.
But all things that are reproved are revealed by the light: for whatever doth reveal is light. {reproved: or, discovered}
Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. {he: or, it}
See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,
Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord [is].

If we are going to be able to understand what the will of the Lord is, if we are going to walk in wisdom, we must "judge righteous judgment."

Ephesians 5:18-21.
And be not drunk with wine, in which is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
Giving thanks always for all things to God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

What is to be my attitude if someone else in the body of Christ judges me? I am to submit myself to that person in the fear of God. But what if that person has a plank in their eye? What if they are not walking in a godly way in the area in which they are reproving me? If my ultimate subjection is to God, then I will subject myself to His Word, even when it is given to me in less than desirable circumstances.

We must be careful not to use the "plank" in someone else's eye as an excuse for not accepting unwanted reproof from God's Word. If you look hard enough, you can always find a plank in the eye of someone you don't want to listen to. None of us walks perfectly before God.

But nobody has a plank everywhere in their body! Don't look for weakness or disobedience in one area of a person's life to use as an excuse for ignoring their godly judgment in another area.

The best rule for receiving reproof from other believers is this: Line up what you hear with the Word of God, and act accordingly.

I Corinthians 4:5a.
5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord shall come...

Does this mean, as some have said, that we are not supposed to judge until the Lord returns? Keep reading!

I Corinthians 4:5b.
...who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make known the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise from God.

What are we not supposed to judge right now? Men's hearts! God has not authorized us to judge other people's hearts and minds. However, we are responsible before God to judge the words and deeds of those within the body of Christ. By what standard? By the Word of God.

Yes, we are to judge. And all of our judgment is to begin with judgment of ourselves. We need to judge whether or not we are in the faith; whether or not our actions are godly; whether or not our thoughts are godly; whether or not our motives are godly.

We must not be satisfied just to judge; we must "judge righteous judgment."

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saint.lunatic's picture
saint.lunatic
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homosexuality

is a sin plan and simple you can't make excuses just because you have sympathy for someone who is the lord can deliver us from anything pray for them but don't justify it just because they are a believer.

CounselingWithX
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I pray that you get a better

I pray that you get a better education. After reading many of your posts, your grammar, spelling and sentence structure are atrocious.

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Graftedgentile
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education

I thank The Living God that He uses the least of us. Numbers 12:3 (Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth.) Psalms 147:6 The LORD lifteth up the meek: he casteth the wicked down to the ground. Psalms 149:4 For the LORD taketh pleasure in his people: he will beautify the meek with salvation. 1 Peter 3:4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. Psalms 138:6 Though the LORD be high, yet hath he respect unto the lowly: but the proud he knoweth afar off. I pray that you seek Him in all meekness and humility in thanksgiving and praise. For He is Worthy!!

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pookaloo2005
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please stop...

pointing out the weaknesses of others still does not justify your points in trying to say being "kristian" and gay is acceptable to our HOLY and JUST God.. Counseling who is the "X" your counseling with? do you know the letter X in occultic circles is meant to be blasphemous to the Lord, by being used as a crooked cross? i.e. have you noticed the the cable company comcast now called xffinity? have you seen the way xffinity is written?

MatthewJames
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X = Osirus

Osirus seems to always have an X: Sun God! Studying the occult should make anyone a believer in God- these occultists are nuts. They openly and knowingly defy God.

CounselingWithX
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Pump the brakes!

The "X" comes from the Greek letter Chi, which is the first letter of the Greek word Xristos, translated as "Christ". You people really need to do something better with your time instead of crying "witch" and assuming you know the meaning of things. This is the exact problem I have pointed out time and time again on this forum. I will pray that you see the light of compassion and the wisdom of Jesus Christ. Amen.

MatthewJames
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Egypt Predates Greece

Egypt Predates Greece by just a few thousand years. You also have the knights templar cross in crown (that is in the shape of an X) and the skull and cross bones etc... I was not crying witch -I dont care what the X means to you. Thanks for your prayers. I will pray for you as well.

CounselingWithX
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I can tell you don't care,

I can tell you don't care, just like you don't care what the scriptures mean to me as well. You are set in your ways and how you see things is the "end all".

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tracy b.
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kindness in the heat of debate

Never mistake stream-of-consciousness, fast typing style with low intelligence, Counseling. We can all disagree without debasing one another, I hope. You mention compassion a few replies after this one but I see none here. I understand the heat of debate and all, but...let's try to be kind to one another in our passionate responses. (I speak to myself as well.)

On your comment to me, previous page, I think we just have different ways of studying the Bible. I pray for the Holy Spirit's guidance before I proceed. That's the most important thing to me in my understanding of the Word. For God's teachings to so ingrain in me that I understand more how to walk in His Way. I love how He layers lesson upon lesson in the Bible; don't think I (or anyone else) will ever find an end to the layering. But I also believe His Word can be understood by uneducated souls in addition to highly educated ones. It is both simple and complex. That means that all the deep Greek/Hebrew translation studies you are doing, while fine and admirable, are unnecessary in understanding the basic meaning of the Scripture at hand. It is written not with some deep, you-have-to-find-it-and-only-the-intelligent-will message. The message is clear as is because the Word says what it means to say, simply and purely. It is infallible, understandable as is. That is my belief.

I know you feel differently. A lot is riding on it for you; namely whether a major part of your life, teaching?, and belief system is a sin. I get it and I actually have compassion for you on that, not hatred or disgust. I've had sin in my life that I tried to defend before, not wanting to believe that it pertained to me, that Scripture. Surely not because then I'd have to give it up. But in the end, God showed me that it did pertain to me. And I don't argue with God or His Word.

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pookaloo2005
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nicely said,tracyb. the bible

nicely said,tracyb. the bible we have as we know it , is the bible God intended for us to have. God's word is what he says it is heb 4:12 and it is also 1 cor 1:18.

MatthewJames
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Gay Marriage

Counseling with X: you've , mentioned a ton of scripture but where does scripture talk about same sex marriage? Marriage is a prerequisite for sex. Premarital sex is certainly a sin. So is homosexual sexual behavior. you cant justify it. I am sorry -I really am. -I cant justify the cig I smoke from time to time -I feel guilty ever time I do it and I hate it.

CounselingWithX
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Actually this is kind of a

Actually this is kind of a trick topic. There is no mention of gay marriage in the Bible (except, possibly, the account of the 'covenant' of David and Jonathan). But neither is there any mention of representative democracy, electricity, the Internet, or polyester clothing. For the vast majority of Christians and Jews (even those that believe in Biblical inerrancy), just because something isn't mentioned in the Bible doesn't necessarily mean that it is sinful or forbidden. Unless you are Amish, of course, in which case you probably shouldn't be reading this in the first place...

The Bible is a smorgasbord for those who need just one out-of-context quote to justify their personal views on marriage. Depending on which pinhole you look through, the Bible can be cited as both approving or forbidding polygamy, monogamy, divorce, and lifelong celibacy. So it is no wonder that there are quotes that can be manipulated in the same way to condemn gay marriage. For instance, the often quoted Genesis 2:23-4:

2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Now before you say, "Aha! so the Bible does forbid gay marriage!", take another look, This passage does not say "'Thou shalt not let two men or two women get married, and get the same tax breaks and hospital visitation rights as heterosexuals." When a commandment or injunction occurs in the Bible it is stated explicitly, as throughout Leviticus.

This passage also has mystical overtones which literalists are apt to completely miss or ignore. It implies that Adam was at one time united with Eve in the same body, and the reason that people seek companionship is because they are searching for their missing half. (This is similar to Plato's theory of the androgyne). Also, both in the Tanach (The Jewish Tanakh is the same as the Christian Hebrew Old Testament and is based on careful copying of Hebrew and Aramaic manuscripts over centuries) and the New Testament, marriage is used as a metaphor for the union of the soul with God, which is obviously binary.

In the Tanach, marriage practises such as bigamy, polygamy, concubinage, arranged and levitrate marriages are described as normal, as in fact they were at the time. All of these types of marriage are today either illegal in most western countries or considered highly unusual, much more so than monogamous same sex unions.

In Genesis 16 Sarah, Abraham's wife, encourages Abraham to impregnate her handmaid, Hagar, because she is barren (although Sarah miraculously later gives birth to Isaac). Later (Genesis 25) Abraham takes yet another wife, Keturah, who is also described as a concubine.

In Genesis 29 Jacob marries the sisters Rachel and Leah, who are the daughters of Laban, his maternal uncle. In the next chapter, Jacob has two sons by Bilhah, Rachel's handmaid, two sons by Zilpah, Leah's handmaid, then two sons by Leah, and finally Rachel bears Joseph.

Six wives of David are named in 2 Sam. 3:2.

Solomon is described as having seven hundred wives and three hundred concubines. However, the Talmud (Tractate Sanhedrin) states that a king may have no more than eighteen wives.

Note that out of all of these arrangements, only marrying two sisters is explicitly forbidden in Leviticus 18; however it is permitted to marry a deceased wife's sister.

So it is absolutely disingenuous to speak of 'traditional marriage' (as a codeword for heterosexual monogamy) as biblical. It is even more absurd when this concept is uttered by members of the clergy, who really should know better.

MatthewJames
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Counseling with X

This is obviously a very deep topic. I am clearly not an expert on the matter. You will have a tough time winning this debate if for no other reason than how clear the bible is for leading someone astray. I dont want that on my shoulders. This is why I believe most people are so hard on this -because most of whats happening in society today is hedonistic, rebelious, spirit of of antichrist-type behavior. I thank God I am not in that situation because I do believe that in some cases it is a biological anomoly. I believe and hope that God has some very special plans for you. What the indivual does is between him/herself and God.

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surfercajun1
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clearing the cobwebs....

Mr. X,

My bible will do it's best to answer what you think most people on here are *avoiding* or as you say by placing their heads in the sand. As I post your comments please keep in mind not to look down on others because (I think your last post was an attack on age and on others grammar) Please keep in mind that I am not attacking your personally sir, but going to war on what is anti-God.

1. There is no mention of gay marriage in the Bible.

That is not a true statement, sir. That is your worldview.
What does the Bible says about homosexual behavior and gay marriage?

Genesis 2:18–25
Leviticus 18:22
Mark 10:6
Romans 1:26–27
1 Corinthians 6:9–10
1 Timothy 1:9–10
These scripture makes it very clear. For you to point out that there is no mention of gay marriage is a clever but unfounded Genesis 3 attack.

2. ...except, possibly, the account of the 'covenant' of David and Jonathan.

Another unfounded statement. Except, possibly? I know you know what a covenant is. It is a promise. There was no mention of marriage between these two men anywhere mentioned. David was already married to Saul's daughter. I am sure in your lifetime there have been men not brothers by blood but one or two you had a healthy relationship of a dear *friend*

3... just because something isn't mentioned in the Bible doesn't necessarily mean that it is sinful or forbidden.

Abortion is not mention either, and evolution or Islam. But as Christians we know abortion kills ( one of the ten commandment) , evolution is denying God ( one of the ten commandment) and Islam is at war with God. ( you can not serve two masters)

4. The Bible is a smorgasbord for those who need just one out-of-context quote to justify their personal views on marriage.

It amazes me here that you would say the bible and smorgasbord in the same sentence. A definition of smorgasbord is a varied collection. Justify your personal views out-of- context? Again please let us both refer to what the bible says and not just what others think or in context we make God a lie.

5. Depending on which pinhole you look through,

This is not obviously not a complete sentence nor is it a complete thought. We should put on our Biblical glasses on and not look through a pinhole at the bible.

6. This passage does not say "'Thou shalt not let two men or two women get married, and get the same tax breaks and hospital visitation rights as heterosexuals. When a commandment or injunction occurs in the Bible it is stated explicitly, as throughout Leviticus.

You are right, Mr X. It does not say that anywhere in my bible nor does it agree with it as well. But why stop at Leviticus? But also include Romans, Genesis and so on. Either we must agree on the whole bible or by picking and choosing what you believe we place our own sinful thoughts in place of God wants for us. God states, His thoughts are higher than our thoughts, His ways higher than our ways. He does not change his mind even if we do by picking which sin is worst. It is all sin to Him.

7. This passage also has mystical overtones. Literalistic are apt to completely miss or ignore.

Only that part about Adam? If you ( as we are all sinners) think the bible has mystical overtones then it is not for us and God is a liar. If you believe in your bible then why is it mystical? It should not be. As Christians we should be literalistic because the bible is the literal and total truth of God.

8. It implies that Adam was at one time united with Eve in the same body.

According to God when he puts and man and a woman together it is NOT implied. It is called marriage and the two become one. Without that you would not be here.

9, the reason that people seek companionship is because they are searching for their missing half.

Don't believe that is not based on scripture but human thoughts. Or as in Judges says, Everyone did what was right in their own eyes.

10 similar to Plato's theory of the androgyne

This I am sorry to say is not in God's law but one man's idea. Just like Darwin. It is a worshiped believe. You can not make the two the same. When you try to blend the two they clash. Kinda like when you go to the hardware store and purchase what is needed for a sprinkler system. You have female and male parts. When you put female with female or male with male it does not work.

11. marriage is used as a metaphor for the union of the soul with God, which is obviously binary.

Marriage is obviously NOT a metaphor or you or I would not be here. If as you say it is, then again the bible would be a lie right from the start. And yet another lie of God. This is another Genesis 3 attack. What do I mean by a Genesis 3 attack? That starts in the garden when the serpent states to Eve...did God really say? So if you can change the meaning, it can mean anything you want it to mean. Therefore you set your own rules for morality, dismiss the bible and place yourself above God.

12. In the Tanach, marriage practises such as bigamy, polygamy, concubinage, arranged and levitrate marriages are described as normal, as in fact they were at the time.

Just because man did it does not constitute it as normal. It shows we are all apt to sinful ways with sinful and evil hearts. It is shown how most if not all the time how it just does not work. One man and one woman. period. God did not change his mind even when man did.

13.Sarah, Abraham's wife, encourages Abraham to impregnate her handmaid, Hagar, because she is barren

This shows how when we don't or won't wait for God's timing things get messy. And if you remember it did! Sarah did encourage him. It was not his idea. Sarah wanted to speed things along because God was taking to long for her to get pregnant. Again, just because we decide to do it *our way* does not make it right. It was through God's timing this miracle happens to Sarah.

14. Genesis 25 Abraham takes yet another wife, Keturah, who is also described as a concubine.

Again, man's way not God's. Is the bible holy and right? Yes but it does show that man changes his mind even if God has not.

15. Jacob marries the sisters Rachel and Leah, who are the daughters of Laban, his maternal uncle. In the next chapter, Jacob has two sons by Bilhah, Rachel's handmaid, two sons by Zilpah, Leah's handmaid, then two sons by Leah, and finally Rachel bears Joseph.

Remember what a mess that was. That was a huge mess that caused a family to fight and then split. We need to be careful when retelling biblical truths. One this is Genesis. It was not until Deuteronomy that God told Moses to tell His people to NOT marry that close in the family. Before that, Adam and Eve's family married brothers and sisters. Remember they were perfect were no flaws. We do marry our brothers and sister but just farther away from the same gene pool that would make a huge difference. The farther away less flaws are seen. Not that we still don't have internal flaws.

16. Six wives of David

Not God's way. Refer back to Genesis. If you recall, there was a big mess on that as well and yet another splitting up of a family, rape and murder then a tried and failed coup. Bathsheba grandfather was in on the latter.

17. Solomon is described as having seven hundred wives and three hundred concubines. Talmud states that a king may have no more than eighteen wives.

And God warned him of marring foreign wives but he did it anyway, again a big huge mess. This time his kingdom was divided. Any time man has changed God's commandments/laws/statues you notice there is a mess involved. It should show us without having God in every aspect of life, we are a mess too.

18. So it is absolutely disingenuous to speak of 'traditional marriage' (as a codeword for heterosexual monogamy) as biblical

Let me get this straight, so traditional marriage to you is disingenuous. What a shame if you were never born through this biblical principal! Codeword? I was sure God's law was just that law, not a codeword. (codewords can and will be changed) And yes, Mr. X marriage in the bible is biblical. With the beginning with a man and a woman that was and still is seen in God's eyes as the family unit. Remember? He who finds a wife finds a good thing. He (male) wife (she: female)

The last part I will re frame on commenting as it is a personal opinion and I don't know to which you are referring to as absurd. The gay clergy teaching or the straight one that continues to ignore God's law who should really know better.

Thank you for reading.

Graftedgentile's picture
Graftedgentile
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"Actually this is kind of a

"Actually this is kind of a trick topic." God is not the author of confusion. He has given us His Divine revelation not to trick or confuse those who diligently seek His truth ,Yet ,He says in Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. So these straw men you that you prop up, just to knock back down doesn't work with those who are reborn in the spirit, John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. I tried to read the bible before i was born from above and it made no sense to me at all. But after being born of the Spirit it is more than an understanding, it is a Spiritual witness that He has given , Divine revelation.

  • Eph 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
  • Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
  • Eph 3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
  • Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
  • Eph 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
  • Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

CounselingWithX
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It should read "tricky" not

It should read "tricky" not "trick", haste typing, my apologies. It's interesting that you ignore all my information, and just bury your head in the sand and regurgitate other verses.

Graftedgentile's picture
Graftedgentile
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Another false assumption, i.e. (judgment) on your behalf. The only thing's i "bury my head in" are the Word of God and prayer. As to ignoring all your information? If i have , say a leaking faucet, is it better that i run to and fro filling and emptying pails? Or, should i go to the source of the problem and fix it? My prayers are that His Truth be revealed to you.

CounselingWithX
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And that is my exact prayer

And that is my exact prayer for you; hat His Truth be revealed to you. And we will leave it at that.

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pookaloo2005
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AMEN!

Amen! graftedgentile, God's word is truth to those who are born from above, who are born of the Spirit!! those who are not, will not accept God's word for what it says....

CounselingWithX
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God's word has been

God's word has been translated throughout the ages, do you not agree?

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Kingskid1611
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Fascinating

I am truly alarmed and yet fascinatied by the large amounts of misinformation(or misinterpretation) of Gods divinely inspired word. I cannot be changed unless God himself changes me. My study of the bible started out with challenging all I'd ever been taught and then allowing God to teach me. Many of the traditions of my family were put thru the test and some are no longer believed but only the true and pure word of God will trusted. I Thank My God that he is Merciful beyond belief because my human side wants to judge. I am learning that Love conquers a multitude of sin but even then sin cannot enter heaven. His mercy will not last forever.

MatthewJames
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Look but don’t touch, touch but don’t taste, taste but don’t swallow. (from the Devils Advocate)

I think that some of you are kidding yourselves if you think you have God all figured out and that you know exactly what he wants -WE CANT POSSIBLY KNOW SOME OF THESE THINGS -knowing what God wants for you life is a little more ambiguous and complicated than how some make it seem. I struggle with this every day -I would guess that if you dont struggle that you are not being honest with yourself.
God and the bible is THE SOURCE- sometimes it is hard to know what is right when living in a world full of sin. –What is the lesser sin type situations. (If your kids are starving is it ok to steal –one that abandons his family is worse than an infidel). My point, its not as cut and dry as some of you make it seem. It would be if the world wasn’t so corrupt. When I mess up or don’t know what to do in certain situations I think of this verse –which is my hope:

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. Rom 8:28

Graftedgentile's picture
Graftedgentile
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"If your kids are starving is

"If your kids are starving is it OK to steal"? Read psalms 37....

  • Psalms 37:7 Rest in the LORD, and wait patiently for him: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass.
    • Psalms 37:25 I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.
    • Psalms 37:40 And the LORD shall help them, and deliver them: he shall deliver them from the wicked, and save them, because they trust in him.
    • God wants us to trust in Him. This is His message to us through out the entire Bible. The word "trust" appears 134 times in the Bible. The word "believe" appears 143 times. We might soon have to trust in Him more and more as the age comes to a close.

MatthewJames
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Yes -Its all about trust

Love Trust and Faith are the fundamental components of a relationship with the Almighty.
I trust that no matter how badly I mess up (and while not rebelliously, I will continue to mess up) that "...all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." Rom 8:28

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stevenl4
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Here is where I stand on the

Here is where I stand on the subject. To me it is not possible to have a loving, caring, deep, relationship with our LORD and SAVIOR Jesus Christ. How is it when the Bible says its wrong that we try to read between the lines and look somewhere else and say well then its right because the Bible doesn't say its wrong when it clearly does. To me you can't support it and LOVE Christ like he wants you to. Can you be a Christian. I would no because if you are still gay when you are SAVED then you have twisted it to something else where all sins are not gonna be confessed. IT IS A SIN TO BE GAY. When we are saved you drop all things old and become new. If you still cling to your old ways then you have not become saved because with salvation there is a change because YOU ARE FULL OF JESUS.

Again back to twisting and turning the scripture looking for new meanings. I believe that you shouldn't do that. In the book of Revelations that is condemned and those that add or take away from HIS HOLY INSPIRED WORD ARE IN DANGER OF GOING TO HELL. Why is there a argument about this because it is plain and simple folks. You just can't be gay and a Christian because why would Jesus won't us to drop one sin but not another.

To those that say you can support it and be a Christian I say no to that to. Here is why. When we are saved all things are supposed to be new. If I was a Christian and I was advocating drugs and sex before marriage you think God would at that and say that a boy. No he would take me out of the picture because I am doing something that could hurt someone else and keep them from the glory of God and his heaven.

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SinSorrow
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Look I have a problem with pornography. I'm just gonna put it out there, it is an issue, I have used pornography for years and after becoming Christian I thought to myself I need to stop this even though I really didn't think it was all that bad. It is easy to think our sin is not that bad, that is the nature of sin. In today's world even porn is considered no big deal but it is a big deal and I didn't realize how big until I tried to stop and realized I could not. Now I can go down two roads, I can love the Lord believe His Word and repent, and try to get my sin under me even though I may at times fail I must keep acknowledging the sin and repent and He will forgive me. He cannot forgive me if I am unrepentant. It is because I am repentant that the sin is paid for by His blood on the cross.
Let me tell you there were many things in Rome that were sexually acceptable. Orgies, homosexuality, pedophilia, sex with animals and probably some acts that we forgot existed but I am sure we will rediscover them soon. Are you saying that because the bible does not specifically condemn these acts they are acceptable to God?
GOD FORBID!
The only sanctioned sexual outlet for mankind is marriage. Many people who condemn homosexuals are fornicators and are just as guilty of sin as homosexuals. If they do not repent of their sexual immorality they will be unpleasantly surprised some day. All of our righteousness is as filthy rags before the Lord. I do think the Lord is forgiving and he is understanding of sexual sin; so was Paul. Romans clearly illustrates the frustration and shame associated with deviant sexual desire and GOD is SYMPATHETIC, BUT that does not mean you should flaunt your shamelessness and be unrepentant toward the Lord. You may in fact have been 'Born that way' you may in fact have 'chosen that path' either way we are all born into sinful natures. Whether it is rape, pedophilia, homosexuality, fornication, prostitution, whore-mongering, the unforgivable sin is none of these. The unforgivable sin is the unrepentant sin.
God bless and keep you brothers and sisters, there is no stone in my hand, but Jesus said 'Go, AND SIN NO MORE.' There was forgiveness, but there was a caveat.

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Shama-Shamar-Kaiya
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Our default (before believing) worldview / "father"/ mind is an al makr / fallen one, a seducer & deceiver who entices us to sin (pagan idol of fleshly knowledge) and then punishes us with guilt especially if we are mindful to repenting (leaving his influence).Gen 3: This fleshly worldview does not die easily or immediately but it's influence fades as our true relationship (not religion) and belief in YHVH grows...

Truely ask and allow Him to be your Everlasting Father (Ad Ab) Isa 9:6 your Husbandman / Committed, Loving, Gardener of your life John 15:1 by faith believing (an active faith exercising that believing on, trusting on, relying on His power, not your own) and also earnestly remember the goodness of God daily, hourly, continually, Rom 2:4..Php 2:5

Carefully hearing...study the Living Word
Carefully Considering...Love the Living Word
Carefully Living...Live the True & Living Word

Faith alone in the finished work of Christ
He was the Related Seed...Son of Man
He was The Sinless Lamb...Son of God
He was willing and ablely completed (obedient) all requirements for the Attonement of man...this means you and applies to you only if you are a believer...according to 1 Cor 15:1-4

"according to the Scripture"...God's Word is a name for Christ and His primary communication in this age...Heb 1:1-2...Psa 138:2...Luke 24:25-27...

The Tree of Life....The Tree of Me
bud.......regard......dis regard
flower..respect......dis respect
fruit.....believe.......dis believe

CounselingWithX
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As you may have observed by

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