Here's one I have worried over for a while. This is not an Apostle speaking but Jesus Himself... So what do we do with this verse----> Matthew 5:17
So we see Jesus says that He didnt come to do away with the Law here. He came to fulfill the promise of prophecy. This has led me to consider. Should we be acknowledging the feasts? Didn't Christ partake in Passover and all of the other religious observances (like feasts). This verse with Jesus speaking has made me pause on more than one occasion. I have said to myself that this was not applicable to me but to say that is to say that I can pick and choose what to believe in the Bible and we know we cant do that. When I ignore this verse I can almost hear the words- there seems a way that is good to man but it leads to destruction. EEK...
Ok, if He didnt come to do away with the Law but to fulfill the prophecies regarding Messiah then what do we do...
Do we need to follow the feasts and passover or not?
Off-Topic
Does the Law apply...
Jesus Himself fulfilled the laws, he was a perfect, sinless sacrifice as required by the law of the prophets. He kept all of the commandments set forth by God and he fulfilled the feasts. He was the Passover lamb, who's blood was shed to cove our sins. If we go back under the Law and start sacrificing lambs again on Passover, we are saying his perfect sacrifice was not enough to cover our sins and salvation becomes works based rather than faith based.
I didnt mean the sacrifical portion to cleanse from sin. Absolutely not cause we all know Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice. I was just trying to understand why Jesus said He had come to fulfill prophecy not do away with the Law and if we should participate in the feasts with Jesus acknowledged as the sacrifical component already made (in otherwords we wouldnt have a need to sacrifice a lamb or any other creature to God) but just observe the feasts themselves. Hmmm well maybe I need to go study the feasts to see what they entail. I should know them but to be honest it was not something we studied in church. We hit on them (history lesson so to speak) but we didnt discuss what they were for in great detail, Anyway - you are right Lost and Found. Jesus IS the ultimate sacrifice.
:)
Scott McAllister has some amazing insight to the Jewish feasts. His youtube videos are well detailed and brings insight to the relationship that had been lost between the Jews and the Church. While gentiles are not under the "law" the chosen are, Christians should use the knowledge that God gave to them for a reason. His lecture on the Seven Feasts explain that the feasts are really "dress rehearsals". For what you may wonder. Will Pentacost, be a time of rapture? Does Revelation 12 describe the stars laid out during the Feast of Trumpets or Rosh Hashana? Very interesting information that has been lost to the church, up until now.
Let the Scripture define your words ... A good study is what the Holy Spirit through Paul's writings says ... on this side of time in the calender ... Luke 24:44-49 .. 1Cor15:1-4kjv
Passover - redemption
Unleaven Bread - sanctification
Firstfruits - resurrection
Feast of Weeks - origination .. caphar Hb#5608 counting(on) God & His cycles of refreshing
Carefully Hear...Faith in YHVH's Goodness...Matzah...eagerly devour - Way
Carefully Consider...Hope in YHVH's Mercy...Shabua...earnestly remember - Truth
Carefully Live...Power to Love in YHVH's Grace...Sukkah...stay planted - Life .. John 14:6 .. 1Cor 13:13
http://www.amazon.com/Feasts-Prophetic-Calendar-Calvary-Kingdom/dp/07852...
I need to add that the purpose of the "law" was to show that we can't keep it .. and to "look forward" to Christ's ability (qualification, relationship, willing action) to fulfill the purpose of adam & his inheritance, to again be one with the Father ...
Gen 3:1-6 .. the fall / deception in self righteousness
Rom 3:21 - the Truth .. God's righteousness by faith in Christ believing ...
Can you enjoy the feasts, absolutely in mature worth ship, but not as an act of required self righteousness ... the theme of Galatians is "Christ Jesus, our liberator from the "law" ..
I was wondering that myself this past summer, I had been listening to some preachers who gave a pretty convincing argument for observing the feasts. So for a while I thought it was necessary to observe the feasts but now I have come to a different conclusion. While it is important to have an understanding of the feasts as they are prophetic foreshadowing of past and future events, we are free from the law. Read Galatians 5 and see if that helps. Galatians 5:1-3, Galatians 5:14
Paul has already answered this question:
Why in the world would a gentile try to keep, or observe Jewish customs?
And why would anyone in Jesus Christ try to keep ANY of the law? Jesus plainly tells us in Matt5:20
"For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."
If you are going to observe one part of the law you had better keep it ALL because we read James2:10
"For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it."
And just for the record....this is why you DO NOT have to tithe. So the next time your Pastor preaches on tithing, and how you have to observe this old testament law....ask him when you should start your burnt offerings too!....or, circumcision of all your male children..ect,ect.
I know that sister of yours did not mean any of this, but I put it that way for the emphasis.
The Law and the Promise
Galatians3:15-29
19Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. 20Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.
21Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.
There it is, in verse 25 & 26, Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the task master of the law, in Christ Jesus we are the children of God, in faith. Abraham was saved by faith, Noah was saved by faith, Paul was saved by faith and we are to. The law has never saved a single human being in the history of the world.
Paul’s Concern for the Galatians
Galatians4:8-11
And Amen to my friend Abdicate for the scripture reference above.
Jesus himself kept up with the feasts, did he not, GG? We're grafted into the faith through Jesus and the feasts are about Him.
I know Jews for Jesus teaches Christians about the Passover feast, the BEAUTIFUL symbolism, and encourages churches/families to join in, if they so choose. No, it's not a required law; it's about honor/remembrance of Jesus' sacrifice. And one day, after Jesus returns, we will hold to some of these feasts during his 1,000 year reign; not just Jews. All of us. The feast of Tabernacles is definitely one. And, surprise, there will be some offerings again; not all. But they're about remembrance, not sin covering. It's stated either in Ezekiel or Isaiah; will have to look up, but I studied it recently.
On the tithing, I couldn't disagree more with you. It's about remembering/honoring WHO gives us the blessings we receive. I set the precedent for that on the feast topic above; it's about remembrance.
I have always found solace in Matthew 5:17 and get upset when I hear people say, "Oh, that's the Old Testament, old law. You need to be in the New Testament." What?! Jesus didn't come to obliterate the old laws as foolishness and without merit, or not worth understanding...no, He fulfilled the old laws; paid the debt. By looking at the old laws/requirements, it leads to understanding of our Father; how Holy He is and how sinful we are. Can we learn from them? Absolutely. Are the feasts to be abolished because they are old law? Obviously not, since he will reintroduce one or two feasts to Christians and Gentiles in His 1,000 yr. reign. Are they required to us now? No. But if someone feels led to experience a Passover feast in remembrance of Him in the meantime, there is nothing in the world wrong with that.
Here's the way I look at "you DO NOT have to tithe." You say that because it's old law and Jesus fulfilled it, right? But what about "Thou shalt not murder", "commit adultery," "worship other idols," etc...The Ten Commandments. If we commit these acts but come to Christ, our debt is paid. But the Truth/Wisdom in these Commandments still stand. They show what is right and True to God. I believe the same on tithing.
7 Well then, am I suggesting that the law of God is evil? Of course not! The law is not sinful, but it was the law that showed me my sin. I would never have known that coveting is wrong if the law had not said, “Do not covet.”* 8 But sin took advantage of this law and aroused all kinds of forbidden desires within me! If there were no law, sin would not have that power.
9 I felt fine when I did not understand what the law demanded. But when I learned the truth, I realized I had broken the law and was a sinner, doomed to die. 10 So the good law, which was supposed to show me the way of life, instead gave me the death penalty. 11 Sin took advantage of the law and fooled me; it took the good law and used it to make me guilty of death. 12 But still, the law itself is holy and right and good.
13 But how can that be? Did the law, which is good, cause my doom? Of course not! Sin used what was good to bring about my condemnation. So we can see how terrible sin really is. It uses God’s good commandment for its own evil purposes.
Struggling with Sin
14 The law is good, then. The trouble is not with the law but with me, because I am sold into slavery, with sin as my master. 15 I don’t understand myself at all, for I really want to do what is right, but I don’t do it. Instead, I do the very thing I hate. 16 I know perfectly well that what I am doing is wrong, and my bad conscience shows that I agree that the law is good. 17 But I can’t help myself, because it is sin inside me that makes me do these evil things.
18 I know I am rotten through and through so far as my old sinful nature is concerned. No matter which way I turn, I can’t make myself do right. I want to, but I can’t. 19 When I want to do good, I don’t. And when I try not to do wrong, I do it anyway. 20 But if I am doing what I don’t want to do, I am not really the one doing it; the sin within me is doing it.
21 It seems to be a fact of life that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong. 22 I love God’s law with all my heart. 23 But there is another law at work within me that is at war with my mind. This law wins the fight and makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me. 24 Oh, what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin?* 25 Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God’s law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin.
To paraphrase Paul above, I would never have known that tithing was good/right, if the law had not said so.
Deut. 14:22-29
22 “You must set aside a tithe of your crops–one-tenth of all the crops you harvest each year. 23 Bring this tithe to the place the Lord your God chooses for his name to be honored, and eat it there in his presence. This applies to your tithes of grain, new wine, olive oil, and the firstborn males of your flocks and herds. The purpose of tithing is to teach you always to fear the Lord your God. 24 Now the place the Lord your God chooses for his name to be honored might be a long way from your home. 25 If so, you may sell the tithe portion of your crops and herds and take the money to the place the Lord your God chooses. 26 When you arrive, use the money to buy anything you want–an ox, a sheep, some wine, or beer. Then feast there in the presence of the Lord your God and celebrate with your household. 27 And do not forget the Levites in your community, for they have no inheritance as you do.
28 “At the end of every third year bring the tithe of all your crops and store it in the nearest town. 29 Give it to the Levites, who have no inheritance among you, as well as to the foreigners living among you, the orphans, and the widows in your towns, so they can eat and be satisfied. Then the Lord your God will bless you in all your work.
("Then the Lord your God will bless you in all your work," ...not forgive you for your sins. He honors tithing by blessing you in your future work.)
thx will look into it. :)
well, i personally have always tithed but I know people who do not. I use to tithe because I thought it was an obligation but I have since seen it as an honor to give to the Lord. :) It's amazing what a perspective change it is. I dont feel I MUST. I do it because I WANT to. Because He gave so much to me. It's all His anyhow.
Grafted- As to the feasts, I was just wondering if we should acknowledge them since Jesus did and since He said He had NOT come to do away with the Law at all. Again, we can pt to all kinds of scripture from the Apostles but that one little hitch is that all the Apostles put together are NOT Jesus. So there's the bugaboo! What to do with Jesus's words... we can interpret the Apostles but Jesus was pretty adamant but was He only talkin to the Jews or the grafted too. We became a branch on the tree through Him. SOOOOOOOO... what now.
I appreciate all my brothers and sisters who are taking the time to prayfully consider this subject. It is hard toargue away Jesus's own words... I love you all!
~Blessings~
with claiming tithes or goodwill donations, etc., for credit on income taxes. I thought we were not to give so that others may see us give. I remember reading once about how this came about, but still dont like it! am I missing something?
no your not. I know some people give large sums but to give and consider it a tax deduction almost belittles the gift. It is no longer a gift to the Lord but a what can I get back from it. Instead of believing He will reward for our gift in faith the tax break is like us saying but I dont think Lord you will give me back what you promised and I want more. That's my opinion. Although I do know people who do this tax thing every single year and call it good stewardship... Im like HUH? well whatever. It doesnt fly with me. What we give in love and faith is returned to us but not necessarily monetarily or even in that pay period. It may be in a time we are struggling and long down the road.. :)
~blessings!
Maybe I should have begun my previous post a few verses back of Galatians chapter 3;
Galatians3:1-9
Tells us all about "Law & Grace".
By Faith, or by Works of the Law?
7Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” 9So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
The Righteous Shall Live by Faith
10For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”d 12But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.
Law is Law, and Grace is Grace.
Galatians5:7-12
13For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 15But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another.
undermine the faith of the Gentile converts by insisting that they could not enter into the fullness
of salvation unless in addition to their belief in CHRIST they submitted to the rite of
circumcision and other requirements of the Jewish religion. As to whether these Judaizers were
sincerely but sadly mistaken Hebrew Christians, or were merely professed believers who sought
to use Christianity as a cloak for the propagation of Judaism, we must leave to the judgment of
the LORD. Paul, who was in a much better position than present-day commentators to know the
facts in the case, was rather thoroughly convinced that they were false teachers, wolves in
sheep's clothing: "And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in
privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into
bondage" (Galatians 2:4) and Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the
concision. For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in
Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh" (Philippians 3:2-3).
The objective of the Judaizers was twofold: (1) they sought to undermine confidence in Paul as a
divinely commissioned apostle on a level with the Twelve; and (2) they wanted to subvert his
teaching that men were saved by faith alone. Paul wrote Galatians to defend his apostolic
authority and to establish the doctrine of justification by faith upon a secure basis of Scripture
and reason. It is hardly needful to say that in writing the epistle he was so inspired of GOD that
his exposition of the doctrine is divinely authoritative for all time to come.
The feasts are commandments from God. For example;
Exodus23:15 Exodus34:22 Leviticus19:37
Again in James2:10
I didn't say it, the Word of the Lord says it.
For observances we have the Lords supper; Luke22:19,20
Amen!
Gentiles Grafted In
Romans11:11-24
13Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. 15For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? 16If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, 18do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.
This is about Jesus Christ, He is The Root.
We, as born again Christians, are grafted into Jesus Christ, He being the head, we being His body, are grafted into HIM! ...not the Jewish "system" or of religious observances.
2Cor5:17
Romans8:2
He is risen!
I love you brother...
I thank you for the scriptural references. I have read and relied on them for years in my life especially when I ran across the verse from Matthew that started this thread. All my brethren here are blessings to my soul. I want you all to know I love you so much!
I felt sure Abdicate would chime in too... :)
again... love and blessings to you all
I meant to add also that..no one is able to fulfill the law perfectly except for Jesus Christ. Matt 5:17
And because we cannot accomplish this, Christ accomplished it for us. Matt5:20
The Scribes and Pharisee's were most devout, religious men...yet Jesus says,
Here we see Jesus rebuking these same men; John 5:39-47
These zealous leaders kept the law and burdened the people with loads to much to bear; Luke 11:37-52
Six Woes
39Then the Lord said to him, “Now then, you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness. 40You foolish people! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also? 41But give what is inside [the dish]j to the poor, and everything will be clean for you.
42“Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone.
43“Woe to you Pharisees, because you love the most important seats in the synagogues and greetings in the marketplaces.
44“Woe to you, because you are like unmarked graves, which men walk over without knowing it.”
45One of the experts in the law answered him, “Teacher, when you say these things, you insult us also.”
46Jesus replied, “And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them.
47“Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your forefathers who killed them. 48So you testify that you approve of what your forefathers did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs. 49Because of this, God in his wisdom said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.’ 50Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, 51from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.
52“Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering.”
Jesus Christ IS our Righteousness, He is our all in all....and I say Holy Father, may you find me, on that day, wrapped up and hidden in the Righteousness of your beloved Son Jesus Christ. Amen.
He is risen!
Enough was being said compared to my two cents. Since you asked, here it is:
What do you think communion is? Whereas the Jews were passed over by the angel of death, we too are being passed over from death. Both events are to keep our leaky memory on topic - God's grace. I for one have wanted to learn so much more on anything Hebrew. Since I've found that I'm not the only one, to the very point that the Jews are standing there scratching their heads, I've found this verse about John the Baptist:
Call me crazy, but with the end approaching, the heart of the children (Christians) to their fathers (Jews) is what's happening. Every time I see a word in Hebrew I get a little pang of joy in my heart. I certainly didn't put it there, so...
The debate on "to keep the law or not", the "to be or not to be" arrogant is replete in the Scriptures, but the haughtiness of Israel at the time of Mount Sinai is the reason three thousand died. The letter kills, the Ten Commandments a ministry of death which glory was done away.
In the early 1900's God poured out His Spirit on young men and they stirred up a great revival throughout the United States - from where we get the "hell fire and damnation" form of preaching. A hundred and ten years later, that no longer works, overall, because the devil has made all that's evil "cool". We used to be able to avoid it by not watching certain TV shows, but now we can't even escape from it because of the commercials between the shows we do watch.
So I repeat:
That's my two cents :)
The Keeper keeps what is precious .. peculiar .. treasure .. Exo 19:5kjv
Shamar Hb#8104 ..Gen 18:19kjv .. Rom 16:24-27kjv .. Gal 3:6-9kjv
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